Pro V Amateur - Who Has The Real Advantage?

Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Read it and weep Nigel. BTW, do you sell Barrett Burston Ale?
How many bags would you like? Can do a special price per pallett if you like...

I've just transferred several thousand dollars for last months grain orders to Cryer Malts, are you telling me I should of just paid it all to Craftbrewer?

Nige
 
Briber,
I would like to get this straight once and for all.

I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.

I told him that i thought it was better that each state had their own representative.

He has therefore made a business decision and CHOSEN to use Ross and therefore he DOES have a monopoly.
You've been claiming this, under one account or another, for years, but I've never seen any proof.
You appear to be downgrading your claim though, once upon a time it was all malt, not just Cryer...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=31194&st=0
 
You've been claiming this, under one account or another, for years, but I've never seen any proof.
You appear to be downgrading your claim though, once upon a time it was all malt, not just Cryer...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=31194&st=0

:icon_offtopic:

This is wandering off topic again. Be careful the OP doesn't chastise you like he did me. Or is that just reserved for his non supporters/mates who post stuff he doesn't like???


This thread, if you read the opening post, is about what advantages do a commercial brewer have over a home brewer. It has nothing to do with your statement here.

cheers Ross

Edit added quote from OP
 
:icon_offtopic:

This is wandering off topic again. Be careful the OP doesn't chastise you like he did me. Or is that just reserved for his non supporters/mates who post stuff he doesn't like???




Edit added quote from OP

No chastising that i saw - You posted in big block letters your definitive statement that had nothing to do with the topic, I was just pointing it out.

+++

I gave up replying to Darrens bullshit long ago.... :p


+++

There's some great stuff being posted here... the thread becomes of little value to anyone when it becomes littered with personal crap.... so please keep on topic :beer:


Cheers Ross
 
No thanks Nige,

Have plenty of cheap malt.

Its good to see that David changed his stance on this. I guess it was the reduction in 10 tonne/annum of malt going to HBers in Adelaide that contributed.

cheers

the_new_darren
 
The difference can be that with a home brewer brewer = brewery

Whereas thats not the case with a pro brewery. Homebrewers enter amatuer comps - Pro Breweries enter pro comps.

So that leaves a set of people, one of whom i am, that make someone elses beer for a living - but make their own beer for pleasure and as a hobby. We can see beers we helped to brew win a prize at a pro comp... But they aren't "our" beers.

I see your point, and i do aggree. I was trying to say that a beer brewed at home can be entered no matter where they work. I doubt many pro brewers would enter a beer in home brew comp it just doesn't add up (i believe ross did to make a statement and a flae in the rules). Why would they risk the chance of losing to the little home brewers. If you wanted to enter a beer brewed at home in a home brew comp i would welcome it, makes winning so much better.
 
The funny thing about this topic to me, is last weekend at the Castle Hill Beer Show, I joking said that people who brewed with an automated herms system or similiar (Braumeister thingy etc) had an unfair advantage over people who use plastic eskies as mash tuns and no electronic temperature controls and should be in a seperate class. A brief debate (bullshit session) followed, but how far off the mark was I? Does the equipment at our groundswell level really make a different to the quality or otherwise of the beer we make? My assessment is NO. Some people invest thousands in equipment and still brew no better than the neanderthals like me. (I think my new 40l Birko is so high tech!). Some people have a vastly superior knowledge of the science of beer making and still don't make consistently great beers.

A previous comment made was both commercial brewing systems and home brewing systems have advantages over the other. Each make product for totally different markets. I'm still happy to drink Tooheys, JS, Fat Yak and Coopers products and others because I like beer. But I make my brews that are nothing like any of the commercials offerings (some cruel people will say I make stuff that are nothing like beer).

So Ross, to have my final say on your thread topic, its not the machinery that makes the beer, it's the man. Neither the commercial or amateur brewer has an absolute advantage over the other as generally speaking, they don't make the same product. Their markets are different - totally different. The real test is to use what advantages you have to make the best outcome you desire. And not worry whether you think the other bloke has some kind of advantage over you. That's none of your business!
:icon_cheers:
 
So Ross, to have my final say on your thread topic, its not the machinery that makes the beer, it's the man. Neither the commercial or amateur brewer has an absolute advantage over the other as generally speaking, they don't make the same product. Their markets are different - totally different. The real test is to use what advantages you have to make the best outcome you desire. And not worry whether you think the other bloke has some kind of advantage over you. That's none of your business!
:icon_cheers:
[/quote]

My 2c worth for that is probably it's value....I have read with interest the previous posts, and must confess here that I have gone "commercial"... I brew on a 50lt Braumeister now and only make 3 kegs a week, I often joke that our brewery is so small that we brew the beer one day and the head the next. my recent purchase of a braumeister follows nearly thirty years of brewing using coppers and esky's, many of the recipes I use date back over 20 years and owe more to Dave Line than modern brewing science, although I now brew commercially, I still regard myself as a home brewer at heart and owe much to the generosity of the home brew fraternity and the brotherhood of beer. I want to note that over the years as a brewer and beer judge I have met many commercial brewers, and can say that all who I have met share the same goals and aspirations as home brewers, based in a love of real beer. If anything they are placed at a significant disadvantage in competitions as they are invariably slaves to the accountants cruel red pen and have to answer to owners and shareholders. The art of brewing is one of the most egalitarian...hobbies/jobs one can participate in as there are few advantages in either the commercial or amatuer field which are unavailable to either. The healthy trickle down of knowledge is something which simply does not occur in other industries which share similarities...I note the wine industry, of which there is a poisonous distrust of sharing knowledge...which is to the detriment of all involved. Ours is a blessed realm where people can engage in healthy debate and still have a beer together at the end of the day, we are lucky in that respect. While I understand the perceived advantage that amatuers see in the commercial brewers quiver, I feel that there is far more we share than that which would be defined as our differences. If we as a group wish to define ourselves by our differences rather than our shared passion, we run the risk of alienating the others (commercial brewers) at our cost. If it is so galling to some that commercial brewers be allowed to participate in brewing contests, give them their own catagories...but please do not preclude their entry, as we all have much to learn from each other. To be honest that there is no magical ability or method I now posses because I now brew as a professional, All that I am as a brewer was well and truly defined in the copper and esky days, and my brews are not one jot better or worse than they were at that time.
yours in brewing
Stephen
 
:icon_offtopic:

No chastising that i saw - You posted in big block letters your definitive statement that had nothing to do with the topic, I was just pointing it out.

My bad

Sorry dude

I'll try to follow the rules, seeing that you are such a stickler for them and all :icon_cheers:

:icon_offtopic:
 
Personally I'd say brewing on a 36HL system at work is totally different to when I pull out the stock pots and urns to make a test batch. Commercial brewing is designed to do what it does and supply a product that the market wants, home brewing has much more freedom in styles and mash regimes.

As for brewing skill, which I think is the key issue of comparing pro v amatuer, my home brewing knowledge was very useful when I switched to commercial brewing but there was a lot to learn about making this specific brewery work to make the best, most consistent beer possible. A lot of that is about quantities, temperatures, times and hitting targets repeatably....and cleaning, cleaning, cleaning. Does that new knowledge make me a better home brewer and give me an unfair advantage? I don't think so as on a homebrew scale it is more about how well you know THAT system and how to control it to do what you want. My homebrew setup is very basic compared to a lot of the systems on here.

However, once I started commercial brewing I stopped entering comps as I didn't feel right about it. I don't have an issue with pro brewers / brewery employees entering comps in general but in my case where I am an owner, recipe designer and brewer I choose to abstain.

The only regret I have is that no other creative gluten free home brewers have stepped up to the challenge of taking on "normal" brewers at competitions!

Cheers, Andrew.
 
The advantage that a professional brewer has is more practical hours of experience logged. This just can't be 'switched off' if he decides to brew on amateur equipment. Just as a professional athlete couldn't possibly switch off his years of training if he wants to run in an amateur carnival.

Not necessarily. I have been amateur brewing for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure i've got more brewing hours under my belt than many commercial craft brewers. I can brew better beer than lots of commercial beers I've tried. I also have the advantage of brewing many different styles and variations of styles, which most commercial brewers don't get the chance to do.

In addition, just because a commercial brewer has many "practical" hours of brewing under his/her belt, doesn't mean they brew beer well enough to win prizes in comps.

Cheers - Snow
 
Whereas thats not the case with a pro brewery. Homebrewers enter amatuer comps - Pro Breweries enter pro comps.
This is a great distinction, TB: ers vs. ies. The beer produced in a Pro Brewery isn't made by 1 man or 1 brewer as it is at home, typically. Around the time of my last contract, I was often asked in social situations where my commercial beer was on draught, "Is that your BEER X? Did you brew BEER X?" to which I would say, "The beer passed through many hands at the brewery. I may have brewed it on the day, another brewer likely dry hopped it, and yet another may have transferred to bright tank. And then there's filtration, the 6 folks in the packaging dept. etc."

Product coming out of pro/commercial breweries has been produced by many persons and should therefore compete with other breweries, in comparable arrangement. AIBA works well for us, for example. When I make a beer at home, and every single step in the process has been made by my hands alone, I'm happy to put that beer up against other homebrewers who have done the same.
 
I'm a homebrewer and not a commercial brewer.

In the past few weeks I've had the good fortune of being able to put a brew through at a craft brewery. Doing that was a real eye-opener.

I can 100% agree with Ross's opening comments, particularly when it comes to controlling your brew more in a backyard setup.

I was looking to do a lot of things on my homebrew recipe typically done in my own backyard set-up, such as step mashing, high ferments and certain types of hop additions, but the brewery wasn't actually capable of doing a lot of this, so we had to think laterally and find ways to get around it.

What I realised during my experience is commercials (or this one in particular at least) are set-up to make particular types of beers, not experiment to the extent that we do. We have the flexibility in our little pots, pans and burners out back that you don't fully realise until someone hands you the keys to their big brewery and says 'Go for it.' You need to work within their parameters and often they're not as flexible as ours.

For example ask any commercial brewer if they have a set up capable of doing a decoction mash easily - you would find plenty that would struggle (yes there are a few that can- I'll admit), but there are heaps of backyarders out there doing them without a fuss. We have more freedom in our hands than we would realise. We just come up with an idea and pretty much can do it. Many commercial guys can't do that unless they tinker away at home.

Personally if a commercial guy makes a beer at home, I don't see a problem with it as long as they are not involving their work set-up or taking home wort or house yeast - but rather using the same things we would. I actually encouraged one assistant guy during my brewery visit to start making beers at home and enter comps as I thought it was legit. Was I wrong?

Hopper.
 
Having a team of microbiologists and biochemists and a lab gives you an advantage.

Seems to me the real issue here is that small-fry people like Ross are lumped with megabreweries.

Not sure whether Ross has a mass spectrometer to analyse diacetyl levels to ppm.

And at least we now know why the hell he brews S189 at 19C! :blink:

If you want, Ross - you can borrow my 19L pot.
 
<snip>
And at least we now know why the hell he brews S189 at 19C! :blink:

Nae a truer work spake.

The fact that Ross quite openly says (in person and here) that s189 (and swiss lager yeast when I last purchased it) is fine at 19 deg, shows that the "equipment" limitation applies even to smaller breweries.

And truth be known - any brewery big or small can produce a good APA - it's not rocket science. Get malt out of grain, chuck in a shedload of hops, ferment somewhere betwee 15 and 21 degrees (I didn't even bother with temp control in the cooler months here is SEQ), chuck in another shedload, gas and serve.

It's only the constitution of the shed that changes.

Goomba
 
I don't think you can fairly compare as theres just too many variables, what are we comparing, The state of the art Campus brewery with every bell and whistle you could imagine against bribies biab bag? I don't know where to start so I won't.
 
have to totally agree with Jayse on this one way too many variables to be able to make a strong case either way, but......

One thing I have noticed over the years with the people I've met through brewing, is the more hands on in the process of creating a beer, the more passionate and knowledgeable the brewer and usually someone who makes a cracking beer to boot, regardless of them being either pro or am
 
In my opinion no-one has and advantage. Both the Home brewer or the Commercial Brewer have equal opportunity to target a particular beer they wish to produce. They both have the opportunity to educate themselves, spend as much as they're willing.

Commercially, the consideration of having to satisfy a market is a self imposed restriction. If you want to win awards in competitions, then focus on that. Don't use the excuse of having to satisfying the market as a restriction, it's a focus. Equally Homebrewers can adjust their focus to the competition away from other things.

So i believe it's an equal playing field. I don't complain that i'm competing against someone that can afford the latest automated gear and a brewing education, who has all the time in the world to perfect there hobby.
 
Can I enter my beers in professional competitions?
 
i'm not sure.... do they have a fucktard category ?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top