Pro V Amateur - Who Has The Real Advantage?

[Ross]

Brewers,

The current debate on amateur V pro brewing in comps has got me thinking, especially as the main complaint (when there is one) is that commercial brewers have an advantage - Personally, being very closely involved with both camps, I don't believe they do.
The following is based on "Craft" brewing in Australia, not the megabrands.

1. Equipment - Commercial equipment rarely (if ever) allows the control & freedom that a homebrewer is able to acheive. This is from brewing equipment right through to fermentation. On my commercial equipment I personaly can only handle single infusion mashes, & fermentation is restricted to a single coldroom set at the same temp (19c) for all beers which are fermented in 60l plastic fermenters. I was speaking to a small brewer the other day who has just added a 500L conical, but is having real problems keeping the initial ferment temp down even though it's in a coldroom like mine. He does not have the luxury of being able to use a $30 temp controller on a second hand fridge for the sort of control homebrewers can achieve. Fantastic Craft brewers like Murray's are constantly fighting the limits of their commercial brewing equipment, whether it be alcohol or hop limitations.
2. Ingredients - a pro brewer has to take into consideration the commercial value of his end product, a homebrewer has no such restraints & can make what they want. Some specialist ingredients are also not available in commercial quantities.
3. Final product - Having produced say 500 to 5000L of a beer the commercial brewer can quite easily be faced with a beer that they're not actually totally happy with. Financial constraints mean this beer will inevitably (unless really bad) still be the beer put to market. The homebrewer can put it down to experience & brews another batch.
4. Yeast - not many commercial brewers can afford to buy pitchable quantities of liquid yeast, so again they either compromise or propogate. Not a problem if they have the ability & the equipment to monitor, but many don't & again I can't see any advantage to the pro over the amateur.
5. Experience - Most commercial brewers are only making a very small range of beers & those that have formal qualifications quite often are quite blinkered (for want of a better term) in their approach & reluctent to experiment with new techniques & ideas. Whereas the homebrewer is genrally more open to learning as the risk of failure is so much less critical & he is often experimenting & making new beers every week.

Pro brewers are unlikey to want to put their name to beers entered in a non-commercial comp as bad results could impact quite severely financially, so i guess you'd be unlikely to see many commercial beers entered into an open competition where all results are made public, but I really can't see a need from an "unfair advantage" angle to ban them & i'd personally love to see totally open comps with no restrictions. These were just a few things that come to mind & I'm keen to hear what people reckon from both sides of the fence.


cheers Ross

 

[raven19]

Some very valid points there Ross.

Thanks for posting.

:icon_offtopic: Out of interest, are those plastic ferment bags due for release to your customers yet?

 

[bignath]

Even though i have never entered into a comp (new years resolution for 2012) i think you make some very good points Ross.

I can see why initially some may question pro brewers inclusion, but as you have delved a bit deeper, i no longer see those same arguements.

Good post.

 

[Ross]

Some very valid points there Ross.

Thanks for posting.

:icon_offtopic: Out of interest, are those plastic ferment bags due for release to your customers yet?

Not on the site, but happy to organise if you drop me a mail.

cheers Ross

 

[ShredMaster]

Yeh very nice points there Ross. Well done!

 

[drsmurto]

How much time each day does a pro brewer get to brew compared to someone who has a fulltime job that doesn't involve brewing?

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I'll summarize for the soothsayers, Those who can, go commercial. Those who can't, brew the best beer.

It has nothing to do with ability, simply desire. Commercial brewers can only brew a limited range that they can find a market for a commercial profit. Home brewers have the whole gambit of styles available as to their want and no need to meet any market at all.

It's a trade off, aint it!

 

[petesbrew]

Cheers Ross. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Amber Fluid]

Well thank you for sharing such a good topic. You have some very valid points that I had never really thought about. Unfortunately I, not having entered a comp as yet, feel I am too inexperienced to post a valid arguement. However, I now come to realise, and appreciate, the difficulties some smaller breweries have to overcome.

Great post Ross.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

No place for Amateurs in pro comps and Visa versa :icon_cheers:
Nev

 

[Fatgodzilla]

No place for Amateurs in pro comps and Visa versa :icon_cheers:
Nev

Can't agree with you Nev. If Chuck Hahn makes a brew at home using the same gear as me, he's welcome in my comp. It's the method, not the man's profession that should be the judge.

Besides, when was the last time a commercial brewer won a prize at State / National levels? And that said, with the number of beer courses and uni degrees currently being undertaken, where does the cut off line start and finish?

 

[Fents]

I've been told im not allowed to enter Pale Ale Mania run by the worthogs down here in Vic because i part own a commercial brewery. They put it to the commitee and the commitee said no.

I used to brew at Kooinda frequently but not anymore since we put two of the guys in full time i just do all the admin. Did i gain more knowledge or power by being able to brew 800 Litre batches of the same beer over and over....not in my opinion.

Ross's points are so valid its not funny. Single infusion mash's, limited ingredients, yeast choice and brewing the same beer over and over.

No real commercial brewer would enter a beer into a homebrew comp, more than likely they might take a cube from a batch and ferment it in a plastic fermenetr, maybe dry hopping it along the way or using a liquid yeast.

All our test batch's we brew are done on the orginal 80L herms system the boys built 5 years ago, 3 tier, keggles, march pump you know the kind. I'd say a fair few would have way more bling systems than that.

I still brew at home all the time for my own consumption (part owning a brewery does not mean free beer, why would anyone drink their profits) as does a couple of the other boys and apparently im not even allowed to enter that beer, granted its only one brew club ive asked about that.

 

[Tim F]

I've never entered a comp but i'm keen to, and i'd love to compete against pro brewers. If they're better than me I'd just have to try harder and the win would be even more satisfying and if they aren't... Then it doesn't really matter!

 

[Barley Belly]

It's black and white.

When you choose to do a hobby or sport or occupation commercially and or professionally you are no longer an amateur.

The question of advantage is mute.

It's an amateur competition.

End of story.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

How much time each day does a pro brewer get to brew compared to someone who has a fulltime job that doesn't involve brewing?

I know homebrewers who brew 3 times a week and I know pro-brewers who only brew once.

How much time does a retiree have to devote to his/her hobby vs someone who has a full time job? My Nan spent 8 hrs a day in her garden for 20 damn years and knew twice as much as the guys down at the local nursery, she'd have kicked their arse in a gardening comp. Is it fair that she should be able to enter her vege's in the local show when there are people who enter theirs who have to work for a living as well as do the garden? How can they compete?

 

[Bribie G]

Interesting point that Ross made about the inflexibility of commercials, and particular the constraint of his system and also the other guy with the big conical. I've always been a bit "tongue in cheek" about entering comps where "the winning beer will be brewed commercially for sale in a number of pubs" because I realise that my brew, made on the large-scale equipment, would probably turn out to be a different animal and not necessarily better.
If any of the Archive winners are reading this, would you say that the finished "commercial grade" version of your beer was significantly different, better/worse?

Edit: I guess commercials are mostly about reproducibility, reproducibility, reproducibility but even so we constantly hear about how the latest Little Creatures / JS / White Rabbit whatever is a shadow of its former self then the next week "wow you've got to try the latest batch of XYZ, it's suddenly nectar of the Gods again"

 

[bconnery]

Interesting point that Ross made about the inflexibility of commercials, and particular the constraint of his system and also the other guy with the big conical. I've always been a bit "tongue in cheek" about entering comps where "the winning beer will be brewed commercially for sale in a number of pubs" because I realise that my brew, made on the large-scale equipment, would probably turn out to be a different animal and not necessarily better.
If any of the Archive winners are reading this, would you say that the finished "commercial grade" version of your beer was significantly different, better/worse?

Edit: I guess commercials are mostly about reproducibility, reproducibility, reproducibility but even so we constantly hear about how the latest Little Creatures / JS / White Rabbit whatever is a shadow of its former self then the next week "wow you've got to try the latest batch of XYZ, it's suddenly nectar of the Gods again"

Well mine was very similar, but then again, mine was a single infusion, and fermented around the same temp, so between that and ingredients etc. it scaled very well to the Bacchus Brewing equipment.
The only thing is I'd say the aroma was down a little on the commercial version, perhaps that's the nature of the cold conditioning method used etc.
Also their attenuation was better than mine, but I felt that worked well with the particular beer.

 

[argon]

If any of the Archive winners are reading this, would you say that the finished "commercial grade" version of your beer was significantly different, better/worse?

Maybe :icon_offtopic:

Only having had the one yesterday, it was different... recognizable as almost the same beer though. Not better, not worse, just very slightly different. When ordering across the bar, do i say it's my beer... nope, i didn't brew it (nor pay for it of course) I helped in a very small capacity though. If asked, i tell them it was my design, but a professional brewed it. Same way, as an Architect... it's not my building, i just designed it, the builder put it together.

So who is the brewer?... the designer of the recipe?... not in my mind. I can think of a BOS example that i've seen that was a dead ringer for one of Jamil's recipes... should that beer (in the confines of the comp) be attributed to Jamil? Nope. The guy putting it together, should get the kudos.

 

[fcmcg]

So if I enter a beer using a recipe from the database or a book that i didn't make up...is it my beer or the original recipe designer's ?
Fents...I'm sure if you made a beer at home on your own system , you would should not have a problem entering it at a Westgate Comp ( i'd have to argue for you, but i'm sure i could convince the commitee )
My 2C...
Ferg

 

[jayse]

From my gathering so far I don't think it was a issue of having an advantage but simply it is actually against the rules to enter beer that was brewed on a system that is used to brew beer for commercial purposes.
I am not going to argue for or against the actuall rule but it does make sense, it makes sense even if you do not see any advantage whatso ever.
Arguing that there maybe an actuall disadvantage I don't think is quite valid and not really the point.

Its my understanding so far that these beers were brewed on the same system as that which makes beer for sale commercially, is this correct?