Pro V Amateur - Who Has The Real Advantage?

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I have no problems with pro brewers entering beers in amature comps if they are brewed on home made equipment at home....... in fact i encourage it! Nothing better than the self satisfaction, when you knock off a top notch comercial head brewer.

I know the 2 Micro's close to me are manned with head brewers who started as a humble home brewer like I, and while i consider them greatly tallented and passionate brewers, the good gear in the flash brewery must help a bit. Mainly cause they know it soooooo well and with all the efforts they make to bring us fair punters fine lagers and ales, im sure there home brewing time and experience suffers as a result.

This will differ from brewer to brewer, as in the pure amature world of brewing and for this reason, i see no problem with them entering home brewed beers.

FWK's brewed on premise by someone else...... thats only gunna cheat the brewer entering the beer in the end, like sweating the label off a bottle of coopers, changing the cap and entering it as a aussie ale....... your only fooling yourself.

cheers
 
If you are talking about the advantages of pro brewers making beer at work vs amateur brewers making beer at home, then I can take your point that the amateur at home has the advantage. Taking a pour off the stream of beer at work would leave you with a beer that has to make the bottom line healthy. Whereas a 9% RIS can be made at home without really breaking the budget (unless you stuff up your temp control and have to re-brew it :unsure: )

But if the debate is about pro brewers using the skills they may pick up at work and then take home to use on their home system, then there have to be significant advantages. Especially the brewer at Yatala, if they work in the lab, would gain immense knowledge and experience that the average homebrewer would not have access to.

:icon_offtopic: I'm still happy for pro brewers to enter comps with beer made at home on home systems :ph34r:
 
think Ross is spot on the money.

Dealing with 20L batches at home makes process/temp control a LOT easier than dealing with 20HL. At home I can very easily and cheaply buy or prop up PLENTY of yeast (a real challange for many micros in OZ), and brew with techniques which would be very difficult to make commercially viable (i.e. Eisbock, no-sparge, extremely high gravity brewing, etc etc). The only real advantage pro brewers have IMO is access to cheaper materials, and perhaps things like O2, which is just a little beyond the means of most home brewers.

My 2c.
 
Hi OLD Darren
Ross does not hold the monopoly for Cryer Malt in Australia. I was talking to the Cryers themselves in NZ last year when I met them at Beervana, and came out with the same statement (believing it to be true at the time) and was very quickly given the rounds of the kitchen - I think things have changed since you got your dealership taken off you Dazz.

I do not believe that Ross has ever held the monopoly on Cryer Malts, yes he sells them but so do business's who were selling them before Craftbrewer existed and still do.
Nor do I believe that Ross would ever have told anyone that he was the exclusive distributor.
I have no idea who Dazz is.

K
 
If you are talking about the advantages of pro brewers making beer at work vs amateur brewers making beer at home, then I can take your point that the amateur at home has the advantage. Taking a pour off the stream of beer at work would leave you with a beer that has to make the bottom line healthy. Whereas a 9% RIS can be made at home without really breaking the budget (unless you stuff up your temp control and have to re-brew it :unsure: )

But if the debate is about pro brewers using the skills they may pick up at work and then take home to use on their home system, then there have to be significant advantages. Especially the brewer at Yatala, if they work in the lab, would gain immense knowledge and experience that the average homebrewer would not have access to.

:icon_offtopic: I'm still happy for pro brewers to enter comps with beer made at home on home systems :ph34r:

I don't think the megabrewers would necessarily have an advantage at all related to their professional knowledge. If they run like most other large companies, they are full of specialists who know a small part of the overall process incredibly well, but have limited knowledge in other areas. Certainly that's true of me and my industry. The craft brewer who runs their production end to end I think is a different story.

With most (all?) of the large brewing environments being automated as well, there may not be much of what they do day to day that translates in any way to home brewing. Not to say that some may not have deep brewing knowledge in many areas, but I don't think that's automatically a given, just because somebody runs the control panel punching out 50K litres a week of psuedo Asahi at Yatala.
 
This thread, if you read the opening post, is about what advantages do a commercial brewer have over a home brewer. It has nothing to do with your statement here.

cheers Ross

The advantage that a professional brewer has is more practical hours of experience logged. This just can't be 'switched off' if he decides to brew on amateur equipment. Just as a professional athlete couldn't possibly switch off his years of training if he wants to run in an amateur carnival.

As a side not, the QABC place getter across many categories, Liam, he's a professional brewer too, right ? If so, QLD brewers are getting SCREWED, and I really hope these discussions bring about some change in future comps.
 
The advantage that a professional brewer has is more practical hours of experience logged. This just can't be 'switched off' if he decides to brew on amateur equipment. Just as a professional athlete couldn't possibly switch off his years of training if he wants to run in an amateur carnival.

As a side not, the QABC place getter across many categories, Liam, he's a professional brewer too, right ? If so, QLD brewers are getting SCREWED, and I really hope these discussions bring about some change in future comps.


Silo Ted, Liam was working part time up at Mount Tambourine, he resigned a couple of months back.
 
I think this argument is a little Rhetorical actually - whilst I agree with some of Ross's points:- I think that the commercial brewer has the advantage - because of the quality of the equipment. Take Knappstein Enterprise brewery as a case in point. I did a visit their not so long ago and they have some pretty schmick stuff at their disposal. I doubt whether too many craft brewers make a product as clean and repeatable as they do.

The examples Ross has quoted seem to point to the fact that commercial size operations are inflexible - I disagree. Commercial operations are inflexible because the repeatability the market requires make them so - not because the equipment is incapable of producing beers of equal quality to the craft brewer on his 50L converted keg kit.

It would be perfectly 'feasible' for a micro size operation to make whatever recipe they wanted. Given the fact that most micros use steam as their primary energy source the limitations are process based and money and new infrastructure usually sorts that out.

A commercial operation 'generally' have the options to control temperature far better than a smaller operation
The commercial brewery has access to chilling systems and filtration systems totally out of the reach of the craft brewer.
Most micros I have seen have jacketed fermenters capable of temperature control beyond that of wacking a 30L plastic tub in a fridge.

Using yeast as an example is also a bit tenuous Rossco - I was led to believe that harvesting is pretty standard practice - I agree that changing yeasts would be a pretty costly initial outlay though.

Just my opinions.

RM
 
Thats a very valid point Silo,

a similar instance in sport occured with Tadgh Kenelly returning to Ireland & getting onto the Kerry footbal team & win an All Ireland

(1) he has bumped someone else off the squad who did not have access to full time professional training

(2) It failed to reward the bumped squad member for sticking with an amateur code for his entire career, spitting in the face of code loyalty.

(3) It breached the spirit of the law that proffessional sportplayers (of any code) are not eligilble to play gaelic sports at a competitive level. Simply by briefly retiring for the period.

I am an ardent supporter of amater sports over their counterparts which I regard purely as businesses living off misplaced loyalty.

As for the original topic, I agree Ross, an advanced homebrewery is superior to a commercial brewery


as for probrewers in comps, I have no objection except for the following objections

(1) must be brewed at home on home equipment

(2) no association of any kind should be made to the brewers workplace



as for FWK, thats far more difficult to come to agreement.

I think it is impossible to police / enforce banning them, so they must be accepted, perhaps there should be a seperate award for best of show for all grain beers, though, even a FWK brewer stil has to handle the yeast variables & possibly modifying the malt or hops. how do you stop someone entering a FWK & claiming it to be AG, it is only entrants concience that can police this.

I guess in the long run, how much satisfaction would you get winning with beers made by someone else.
 
I do not believe that Ross has ever held the monopoly on Cryer Malts, yes he sells them but so do business's who were selling them before Craftbrewer existed and still do.
Nor do I believe that Ross would ever have told anyone that he was the exclusive distributor.
I have no idea who Dazz is.

K

DrK
Were you brought up in Australia?

If so you would be well familiar with the Australian colloquial tradition of substituting "z" for "r" when forming "familiar" terms or nicknames for People where the first syllable of their first name ends with an "r" - and aditionally often rounded off with a final "a"

Examples:

Terence - Tezz, Tezza
Maurice- Moz, Mozza
Warren - Woz, Wozza

And in a major cultural diversion since the 1980s increasingly applied to females:

Lauren : Loz, Lozza etc etc

Not forgetting our good old and persistent:
Darren: Daz, Dazz, Dazza

Or were you confused by my usage of two "z" perhaps? :icon_cheers:
 
Well, I guess that depends on who is the pro. Joe Blogs brewing 50,000L in a hit at Yatala has no advantage at all, he's behind the 8 ball big time because he is most likely brewing some tastless megaswill, no doubt he is doing a great job of it, but there is little advantage to him in a craftbeer scenario.

I tend to disagree with this point, BD...

Sure the forklift driver and the secretary probably haven't, many of these guys have been trained in courses you and I probably couldn't get an invitation to, or affford, if we wanted. They have a lot of resources at their fingertips. Just because they are seen to be brewing only four types of 'tasteless megaswill' by the average homebrewer, it shouldn't be forgooten that he has learnt to do it repeatably, within a very, very tight spec and realise what he needs to do in every last step of his brewing process to achieve that end goal. He can probably recognise more off flavours than you care to know about as well as describing in detail what caused them and what their pre-cursors are and what he needs to do to correct it precisely. I think that is a pretty good advantage...

But I think the point is moot. I doubt any of them would really want to enter our little comps. When they do, we probably all should start to worry..
 
DrK
Were you brought up in Australia?

If so you would be well familiar with the Australian colloquial tradition of substituting "z" for "r" when forming "familiar" terms or nicknames for People where the first syllable of their first name ends with an "r" - and aditionally often rounded off with a final "a"

Of course, Dazz is Darth...

K
 
Of course, Dazz is Darth...

K

Yes, you are dead right - didn't realise it till now - perfect likeness :lol: :lol: :lol:

darth.jpg
 
There are going to be advantages to both sides.
On balance I think the dedicated home brewer comes out on top. We have pretty much unrestricted access to everything a pro brewer can get. If we are willing to invest in the equipment as good control of the mash/boil/fermentation parameters of a brew as is available to anyone.
There is no restrictions on knowledge, go the IBD website and enrol in a coarse, you can study right up to PhD level if you are so inclined (I read the Master Brewers exam questions and Im never going there) but there are plenty of AHBs who have done/are doing the Diploma that carried degree equivalence.
A lot of the responses in this and the other two threads running, boil down to people trying to exclude brewers who arent making beer the same way they do. Reminds me of that old Rolling Stones line aptly enough from I Can't Get No Well he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me.
There are lots of ways to make beer, making good bear takes skill and knowledge lets get on with judging the beer not the man or the method.
MHB

On a personal note: -
I believe Ross has acted within the rules; his actions have highlighted an area of the rules that need further examination.
Although I dont agree with some of his opinions my impression is that Ross acted from conviction and with honour.
This and the related discussions are naturally going to get some brewers blood pressure rising, please lets all respect that we may never reach a conclusion that satisfies everyone, if we can avoid acrimony and address the issues we all stand to benefit.
Mark
 
I agree with some of your observations Ross. Clearly, there is no point of contention on the use of a unique strain of liquid yeast in commercial quantity vs. a close approximation dried. Many of your points are draconian in relation to commercial operations, where they need not be. With respect, brewing is problem solving@ any scale :icon_cheers:

1. Equipment - Commercial equipment rarely (if ever) allows the control & freedom that a homebrewer is able to acheive. This is from brewing equipment right through to fermentation. On my commercial equipment I personaly can only handle single infusion mashes, & fermentation is restricted to a single coldroom set at the same temp (19c) for all beers which are fermented in 60l plastic fermenters. I was speaking to a small brewer the other day who has just added a 500L conical, but is having real problems keeping the initial ferment temp down even though it's in a coldroom like mine. He does not have the luxury of being able to use a $30 temp controller on a second hand fridge for the sort of control homebrewers can achieve. Fantastic Craft brewers like Murray's are constantly fighting the limits of their commercial brewing equipment, whether it be alcohol or hop limitations.
Lumping all equipment into the same basket is confused. Additionally, commercial breweries will be unique in their own right (turn-key, generic, purpose built solutions aside) including differing standard operating procedure affecting final product.

Step mashing is generally a matter of efficiency in terms of brewer's wage and resources. But it can be, and is done on commercial scale. A good friend of mine, who is an award winning commercial brewer in KS, USA recently used his fermentation program to monitor his mash, sending his wort through his PC which was recirced with hot water to desired step temp. He effectively turned his system into a giant RIMS@12BBL. Oh, and this was so he could ferulic rest his Weizenbock.

Any decent pro brewery will have glycol jacketed fermenters with individual temp control. Chucking several ferms in an ambient environment can present problems including the ones you've mentioned. The only commercial operation that I've seen attempt this is Emerald Hill, and they're out of business (for a myriad of reasons including no/poor control of fermentation temperature).

Limitations in commercial equipment can be addressed just as they are on a homebrew (or any) scale eg HLT is restrictive to a brew day, requiring top up and ramp time where, as solution, a larger HLT can be installed. Ferms not meeting production? 3x sized unitank as replacement. Limitations in alcohol? Explain. Limitations in hop? How and where? At what stage in the process?

2. Ingredients - a pro brewer has to take into consideration the commercial value of his end product, a homebrewer has no such restraints & can make what they want. Some specialist ingredients are also not available in commercial quantities.
Of course consideration is made on a commercial scale. How is consideration a restraint?

Take a Pilsener in production with 96% base of domestic pils, retailing@ $15AUD/6pack, where the brewery decides to shift to a base of import floor-malted boh pils. Retail would necessarily shift from $15 to $19 to reflect the change in bill. Where's the problem? If the final selling price reflects the cost of ingredient, why does it matter? I've paid $30 for 1 bottle of commercial beer, and would happily do so again so long as the brewery keeps making the stuff. If consideration simply means time involved, who wouldn't want to do that? We're all passionate here - home, pro, commercial. And money matters to each of us.

Agreed, some specialist ingredients are not available in commercial quantities. This is where a good commercial brewer explores alternatives eg dried curaco orange. A homebrewer does the same (and probably, rightly so atm with Curaco). If the commercial brewer can't get it to begin with (at his scale) alternate ingredients come into play and necessarily so. And there are plenty of both private and public pro forums where subs (and ingredients, in general) are addressed.

3. Final product - Having produced say 500 to 5000L of a beer the commercial brewer can quite easily be faced with a beer that they're not actually totally happy with. Financial constraints mean this beer will inevitably (unless really bad) still be the beer put to market. The homebrewer can put it down to experience & brews another batch.

Commercial breweries will blend beers that don't meet their targets. If batch A was brewer error = forgot bittering hops, batch B would be brewed with compensation eg highly bittered and both beers blended to batch C. If SRM isn't met, a number of commercial products are available to adjust in ppm. Point is, commercial beer is never run down the drain and can almost always be fixed. This is where it's important for the brewer to have a very developed palate, where final product meets consumer expectation across the board (this isn't that difficult - you make your APA taste like your APA). I use the example of a brewer forgetting his bittering hops as a homebrew-friendly example. This would certainly qualify as a serious bonehead manoeuvre on a pro scale (and frankly, I've never heard of it happening) the reality is we're talking missing very specific targets like gravity being out by 2 points or flavour perception being lessened at a specific batch where maybe a specialty ingredient like a nut used in mash isn't quite as toasty as the brewer had expected, so an excessive batch is brewed and ideally, in the bending process, a target beer is reached.

I have never worked in a commercial environment where a beer has been infected, but I can guarantee the drop valve would be opened to the floor without question or hesitation. Infection can not be fixed or masked at any level. Pro brewers have the experience where anomalies are rare, and batches don't need to be put down to lack of experience or chalked to experience.

You shouldn't be brewing commercially if you're running beer to the floor on any regular basis, period.

4. Yeast - not many commercial brewers can afford to buy pitchable quantities of liquid yeast, so again they either compromise or propogate. Not a problem if they have the ability & the equipment to monitor, but many don't & again I can't see any advantage to the pro over the amateur.

100% agreed, here. It's no so much that AUS brewer's can't afford pitchable quantities of liquid yeast, it's not readily available in Australia at pitchable quantities. Or to get commercial pitchable quantities on a per batch scale@FedEx international priority, would run you several hundred dollars.. maybe 4x the cost of dried. Commercial micros in the States requiring 1st gen can contact WL/wyeast with their brew roster requesting x strain even request overnight quantity.. need to pitch tomorrow at 4pm sort of deal. Commercial quantity is affordable, readily available and systems are in place to make the entire operation convenient. We're scratching our asses here. And you're right, only the big boys CUB etc. have the proper gear, labs & environment to correctly monitor this leg of operation.

In terms of propagation, homebrewers propagate all the time. We step to correct pitching rates. We propagate from slants, etc. If I were to hazard on who had the upper hand, both being lab-less, I'd say it's the commercial operation as they're not fermenting 4 meters from a toilet, or dryer, or weird blossom tree opposite the window from the homebrew den. Generally speaking, a commercial operation will be a more sterile environment than a person's home (I don't change shitty nappies at work, but I do at home)!

5. Experience - Most commercial brewers are only making a very small range of beers & those that have formal qualifications quite often are quite blinkered (for want of a better term) in their approach & reluctent to experiment with new techniques & ideas. Whereas the homebrewer is genrally more open to learning as the risk of failure is so much less critical & he is often experimenting & making new beers every week.

Commercial brewers are commercial. They brew so they can stay in business so they can brew. You're not going to see Mountain Goat brew a Berliner Weisse any time soon, and not that I'd want them to. I don't want a rye IPA today, a Flanders red tomorrow, a cal. common, hell a funky lager randalled through asparagus. I want that name brand (and not Goat, necessarily) to be what I expect of that name brand, when I belly up to the bar to plunk down a $10er. Commercial breweries are not going make new beers every week because they need consistency. Their punters need consistency. I've never had a VB that didn't taste exactly like the VB I had before it. It's a good thing. And I don't think it's entirely a risk of failure, it's more wanting to provide a consistently familiar product. I know homebrewers who are very good at brewing Weizen. They nail it hard every time. I like that. I like their familiarity and consistency in that style, as a brewer.

Pro brewers are unlikey to want to put their name to beers entered in a non-commercial comp as bad results could impact quite severely financially, so i guess you'd be unlikely to see many commercial beers entered into an open competition where all results are made public, but I really can't see a need from an "unfair advantage" angle to ban them & i'd personally love to see totally open comps with no restrictions. These were just a few things that come to mind & I'm keen to hear what people reckon from both sides of the fence.

Leave the pro vs. am tasting to your mates, or your bar, or your workspace. Let everyone around you know how great your beers are, and leave it at that.

cheers Ross

Cheers
 
Hi OLD Darren
Ross does not hold the monopoly for Cryer Malt in Australia. I was talking to the Cryers themselves in NZ last year when I met them at Beervana, and came out with the same statement (believing it to be true at the time) and was very quickly given the rounds of the kitchen - I think things have changed since you got your dealership taken off you Dazz.

Briber,
I would like to get this straight once and for all.

I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.

I told him that i thought it was better that each state had their own representative.

He has therefore made a business decision and CHOSEN to use Ross and therefore he DOES have a monopoly.

To cut to the chase and to keep on topic....commercial brewers entering amateur competitions do have SIGNIFICANT advantages over the average homebrewer, especially as was pointed out in this thread, when the professional brewer DID NOT even make the beer but entered it under their name.

Its cheating Briber and perhaps you endorse it?

the_new_darren

EDIT: As I mentioned before when Ross opened his first can of hopped extract and made his first beer back on Grumpy's forum, he would have been the first to chuck a "hissy fit" if Grumpy's or Dr. Cooper enetered their worts in an Amateur comp.
 
I do think that it should be defined to home brews in the amatuer comp. I doubt that we could enter a beer into the comercial beer comp so why should they be entering in the amatuer comp.

The difference can be that with a home brewer brewer = brewery

Whereas thats not the case with a pro brewery. Homebrewers enter amatuer comps - Pro Breweries enter pro comps.

So that leaves a set of people, one of whom i am, that make someone elses beer for a living - but make their own beer for pleasure and as a hobby. We can see beers we helped to brew win a prize at a pro comp... But they aren't "our" beers.

I seriously doubt that you are going to see more than the very rare instance of someone who has genuine control and ceative input into beer development at a pro brewery, entering an amatuer comp with any beer of any description. Why would they? You enter comps, ultimately, to see if other people think your beers are good and get all warm and gooey inside when it turns out they do. If its "your" beer winning medals in the pro comp, and going over the bar in exchange for peoples hard earned cash, there's your self affirmation - the only thing entering an amatuer comp provides you with is an opportunity to have a non pro kick your arse. You get no kudos for winning and laughed at for losing. The only people interested are going to be those who aren't able to contribute at that level professionally in the first place - so their profession doesn't actually even extend to what the amatuer comps are about.

Sure there might be the odd weirdo out there who loves to win so much that they'll do whatever it takes.... But even then, they still have to actually win, and I agree that the advantages you have as a homebrewer far outweigh any that a pro brewer might have.

Homebreweries have the advantage, of that i am certain. The pro breweries in this country that can match the flexibility and control i have in my home system are few and far between.
 
Briber,
I would like to get this straight once and for all.

I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.

I told him that i thought it was better that each state had their own representative.

He has therefore made a business decision and CHOSEN to use Ross and therefore he DOES have a monopoly.

the_new_darren

I love the smell of BULLSHIT in the morning!
 

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