Hi all, ive got my first ag fermenting away and will be crash chilling it in the next few days and was wondering since im stuck for time can i add both the gelatine and polycar in the one go at the same time? Ive searched using google to no avail, cheers.
Polycar And Gelatine In One Dose
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As Ross would probably concur, Gelatine and Polyclar work in the same way but opposite:
Gelatine works because it has a positive electrostatic charge and attracts yeast
Polyclar has a negative electrostatic charge and attracts polyphenol compounds that cause chill haze.
Or maybe it's the other way around,
but you get the idea.
I'd do it in 2 stages personally.
Gelatine works because it has a positive electrostatic charge and attracts yeast
Polyclar has a negative electrostatic charge and attracts polyphenol compounds that cause chill haze.
Or maybe it's the other way around,
but you get the idea. I'd do it in 2 stages personally.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I no longer fine at all, post fermentation, but when I first started using polyclar, I used it in conjunction with gelatin and it seemed to work OK.
Then I tried Ross' advice given above and found a big difference so that is what I would follow, if I were to do it again.
Nowadays as long as I can wait Cold conditioning and not drinking beers at tits freezing (so no chill haze) and my beer is as clear as I care about.
Then I tried Ross' advice given above and found a big difference so that is what I would follow, if I were to do it again.
Nowadays as long as I can wait Cold conditioning and not drinking beers at tits freezing (so no chill haze) and my beer is as clear as I care about.
the_new_darren
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If you are adding both at the same time you might as well just add one (my vote: gelatine as it removes the yeast, whilst polyclar removes the "cold-naze" only.
Yeast makes up most of the turbitity so better off removing yeast and saving the polyclar for when you have more time.
cheers
the_new_darren
Yeast makes up most of the turbitity so better off removing yeast and saving the polyclar for when you have more time.
cheers
the_new_darren
VBisGod
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polyclar and gelatine and cold conditioning, out of the three I prefer one but would add a fourth called patience in a keg. i have personally tried over the years all the finings mentioned and have never been convinced except the third, cold conditioning drops everything overtime, time some dont have, time some do. I prefer too keep the less shit out of my beer by giving at least 6 weeks in a keg at 4-6 deg.
Sure plastic polyclar and gelatine work quicker as post finings as some report. Do I want this stuff in MY beer? NO! Its as close to preservatives as a hell of a lot people here bang on against the main player breweries.
If you were a craftbrewer and not a homebrewer of sorts I would at a guess ensure the wort to the fermenter was good/great/excellent. If I was homebrewing and couldnt give a shit about what goes to the fermenter aka BIAB, then it may well need to be fined, saying that, I have brewed BIAB, 3V, and the results for me are clearer wort from the ketttle is a better beer via a recirculation mash and a chill. A very good BJCP judge once said to me, if you cant beat those turbid BIAB/NC beers, give it away.
I follow results and I dont think the BIAB world is winning yet NOT representing consistent styles of beer in competitions.
Ohh yeah and back to finings
Flame out.
EDIT..not other to say some systems do not require fining, some systems rely on them
Sure plastic polyclar and gelatine work quicker as post finings as some report. Do I want this stuff in MY beer? NO! Its as close to preservatives as a hell of a lot people here bang on against the main player breweries.
If you were a craftbrewer and not a homebrewer of sorts I would at a guess ensure the wort to the fermenter was good/great/excellent. If I was homebrewing and couldnt give a shit about what goes to the fermenter aka BIAB, then it may well need to be fined, saying that, I have brewed BIAB, 3V, and the results for me are clearer wort from the ketttle is a better beer via a recirculation mash and a chill. A very good BJCP judge once said to me, if you cant beat those turbid BIAB/NC beers, give it away.
I follow results and I dont think the BIAB world is winning yet NOT representing consistent styles of beer in competitions.
Ohh yeah and back to finings
Flame out.
EDIT..not other to say some systems do not require fining, some systems rely on them
Yes, can't brew a good clear beer with BIAB <_<
Right now drinking this turbid shit that was lagered for 4 weeks and unfortunately didn't get Gelatined or Polyclared.
Oh woe is me
B)
whilst I do use the dreaded clearing agents for quick brews, can't go past a decent cold crash or lagering, you just need to get ahead and have enough fridge space / kegs / cubes etc.
Edit:
conversation in 1843: Hey Bogdan, this new Golden Beer that is about to take the World by storm is still as cloudy as a Gypsy's pee after 3 weeks, what are we going to do?
Don't worry Castamir, my brother Vladimir in Transylvania has contacts with the Count Poliklar who has invented a potion in his underground laboratorium .....
Right now drinking this turbid shit that was lagered for 4 weeks and unfortunately didn't get Gelatined or Polyclared.
Oh woe is me
B)
whilst I do use the dreaded clearing agents for quick brews, can't go past a decent cold crash or lagering, you just need to get ahead and have enough fridge space / kegs / cubes etc.
Edit:
conversation in 1843: Hey Bogdan, this new Golden Beer that is about to take the World by storm is still as cloudy as a Gypsy's pee after 3 weeks, what are we going to do?
Don't worry Castamir, my brother Vladimir in Transylvania has contacts with the Count Poliklar who has invented a potion in his underground laboratorium .....
Unfortunately i live away from home due to work comitments (where my fermenter and fridge is) and only come home for 1 or 2 days each weekend. Basically ive got 2 days to get my beer bottled and get another brew down and chilled into the fermenter by sunday arvo. My first 4 brews were all k&k or Extract with spec grains steeped @66 for 30 mins then hops added and boiled etc.Every one of my brews was crystal clear in the bottle then turned hazy when it was chilled.For my first ag I just want a clear beer at this stage and will work on correct procedures and improvement in my techniques when i get a few more under my belt and the time to do it and a better stockpile of beers in my stash, im almost out as i wanted to move to ag and refused to do another kit brew. Im not fussed about eating jelly or plastic in my beer at the moment as i understand polycar is used in many foods and pills etc that we eat anyway. Ive left my brew for 11 days primary and the missus is hitting the fridge on and disconnecting my temp controller to crash chill my beer so when i get home friday i can hit it with some plastic juice to clear it hopefully. I would like to do primary for 14 days then chill for a week or two but havent got the space just yet.Thanks for the helpful replies,cheers
Because Polyclar is a fine powder that doesn't actually dissolve ( and that's how it works, the polyphenols are attracted in myriads to the surface of each tiny granule) it doesn't actually end up in the cleared beer. A bit like when you skull a schooner of VB you aren't ingesting any diatomaceous earth from the filters that they use at CUB - similar principle.
stix, one problem with chill haze is that some extracts, particularly LDME can give you wicked chill haze as LDME is mostly produced for non brewing purposes such as baking and confectionery (if LDME production depended on home brewing as its only customer there wouldn't be a LDME factory anywhere in Australia I guess) Edit "Mummy Mummy my tiny teddy bikkie's got chill haze" - so it's not "optimised" for brewing, and I always used to use PC with those brews in my extract days.
Kit brews however are optimised for the home brewer and I never got a chill haze, if matured for the recommended period.
stix, one problem with chill haze is that some extracts, particularly LDME can give you wicked chill haze as LDME is mostly produced for non brewing purposes such as baking and confectionery (if LDME production depended on home brewing as its only customer there wouldn't be a LDME factory anywhere in Australia I guess) Edit "Mummy Mummy my tiny teddy bikkie's got chill haze
" - so it's not "optimised" for brewing, and I always used to use PC with those brews in my extract days. Kit brews however are optimised for the home brewer and I never got a chill haze, if matured for the recommended period.
the_new_darren
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If you are bottling then i would advise against using polyclar at all. If you are concerned about a bit of "cloud" in your beer I suspect that you will also be adverse to reasonably large chucks of plastic-protein in your beer?
If you can imagine finely grinding one of your fermenters into a powder and adding that to your beer, it doesnt add flavour but certainly adds texture.
It should be settled for at least 3-4 days. Anything before that and it will be "plastic beer"
And to again answer your original question. Chances are that adding gelatin and polyclar together will result in NOT acheiving either efficient yeast or chill-haze removal. In combination, they will perform less well together than each component applied seperately.
cheers
the_new_darren
If you can imagine finely grinding one of your fermenters into a powder and adding that to your beer, it doesnt add flavour but certainly adds texture.
It should be settled for at least 3-4 days. Anything before that and it will be "plastic beer"
And to again answer your original question. Chances are that adding gelatin and polyclar together will result in NOT acheiving either efficient yeast or chill-haze removal. In combination, they will perform less well together than each component applied seperately.
cheers
the_new_darren
Leaving aside the whole question of whether or not to fine (in the main I agree with VBisGOD (except maybe for the name - VB isnt God)), cold and patience being the best answer.
PVPP in any of its many forms is NOT a fining. It chemically binds polyphenols removing them from the beer so they cant combine with proteins to form haze. The type of reaction is more analogous to that of activated carbon which can be engineered to adsorb (not absorb like a sponge) specific molecules and disregard others that are quite similar, a good example being in distilling where a well selected activated carbon will remove Propyl alcohol, Butyl alcohol and other higher alcohols (Fusels) but will let Ethanol alone (mostly). This is going on at a molecular level well below the size where we can see whats going on, through a process that involves hydrogen bonding.
Fining agents (gelatine, Isinglass) act on large structures like yeast cells and in the case of Isinglass on protein/polyphenol complexes (chill haze) to pull them into larger denser clumps which settle faster.
PVPP is totally insoluble and can be added to beer at any time, there are specialised versions, the kettle version usually called Brew Bright (or variations of same) contains a mixture of PVPP and k-Carrageenan the same active ingredient found in Irish moss, KoppaFloc, Whirlfloc ... Its the fining not the PVPP.
Post fermentation treatment form range from granules mostly used in wine making (removes polyphenols that cause pinking in white wine) to blends of PVPP and Silica Xerogel, neither of which are a fining but act to bind both polyphenols and <40,000 MW proteins that are the other half of the chill haze equation. Ad blurb but good info on Polyclar 730 View attachment Superior_Colloidal_Stabilization_of_Beer_With_Polyclar_Plus_730.pdf
This is the OT bit because PVPP is trying to hook up with very specific and quite rare polyphenols the less other crud floating around and getting in the way the better; or to put it another way the clearer the beer the better the PVPP can do its job.
So do all the Fining you can first, then use the PVPP to keep the beer stable.
MHB
PVPP in any of its many forms is NOT a fining. It chemically binds polyphenols removing them from the beer so they cant combine with proteins to form haze. The type of reaction is more analogous to that of activated carbon which can be engineered to adsorb (not absorb like a sponge) specific molecules and disregard others that are quite similar, a good example being in distilling where a well selected activated carbon will remove Propyl alcohol, Butyl alcohol and other higher alcohols (Fusels) but will let Ethanol alone (mostly). This is going on at a molecular level well below the size where we can see whats going on, through a process that involves hydrogen bonding.
Fining agents (gelatine, Isinglass) act on large structures like yeast cells and in the case of Isinglass on protein/polyphenol complexes (chill haze) to pull them into larger denser clumps which settle faster.
PVPP is totally insoluble and can be added to beer at any time, there are specialised versions, the kettle version usually called Brew Bright (or variations of same) contains a mixture of PVPP and k-Carrageenan the same active ingredient found in Irish moss, KoppaFloc, Whirlfloc ... Its the fining not the PVPP.
Post fermentation treatment form range from granules mostly used in wine making (removes polyphenols that cause pinking in white wine) to blends of PVPP and Silica Xerogel, neither of which are a fining but act to bind both polyphenols and <40,000 MW proteins that are the other half of the chill haze equation. Ad blurb but good info on Polyclar 730 View attachment Superior_Colloidal_Stabilization_of_Beer_With_Polyclar_Plus_730.pdf
This is the OT bit because PVPP is trying to hook up with very specific and quite rare polyphenols the less other crud floating around and getting in the way the better; or to put it another way the clearer the beer the better the PVPP can do its job.
So do all the Fining you can first, then use the PVPP to keep the beer stable.
MHB
Exactly. Here's a shot of the secret police looking out for polyphenols - looking looking looking. - heads moving right and left looking for any suspicious behaviour in the crowd that is nearly all good citizen yeasts who pay their taxes and are in full time employment having given you your alcohol
But in there, lurking, are the polyphenol terrorist front (PTF) who, as MHB says are rare but can reduce your high rise to rubble. If the good citizen yeasts can drop then the PTF bastards are there in plain view so Sam and Josh there can draw a bead on them and take them out.
**** yeah.
But in there, lurking, are the polyphenol terrorist front (PTF) who, as MHB says are rare but can reduce your high rise to rubble. If the good citizen yeasts can drop then the PTF bastards are there in plain view so Sam and Josh there can draw a bead on them and take them out.
**** yeah.
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