Pilsner and acid adjustment

[TheWiggman]

My next venture is a Bohemian pilsner. I now have my system under control and have the luxury of temp control. The venture into the subtle style of pilsner though has identified the biggest weakness in my system to tackle this - water.

I've enjoyed reading through this thread with some clearly very experienced an knowledgeable brewers. Below is a picture of the tap water I have on hand, which I got tested privately recently -

Metals - tested to CA14106. If not listed, concentration is <0.01mg/l

Calcium 9.9 mg/l
Copper 0.02 mg/l
Magnesium 7.1 mg/l
Potassium 3 mg/l
Silica (Si02) 4.9 mg/l
Sodium 10 mg/l
Zinc 0.03 mg/l
Total hardness: 54.0 mg\l

Anions - test method CA15000

Chloride (Cl) 14 mg/l
Sulfate (SO4) 4 mg/l

Alkalinity - test method CA12121

Total alkalinity (CaCO3) 53 mg/l
Phenolphthalein alkalinity (CaCO3) <25 mg/l

pH @ 25°C 7.4

Overall it's good and very low in minerals, but I've noticed that due to the slight hardness and measured alkalinity, the mash pH is too high. To do a pilsener properly I need it to get down to the low 5's.
There are a few ways I can see I can do this -

1. Adding some acidulated malt (2% max recommend to minimise minerals)
2. Treating with calcium chloride
3. Treating with lactic acid

The issue as I see it is mainly the total carbonate (bicarb + carb) content. Using a calculator, it's around 64 ppm. If I use CaCl this will up the bicarbonate and minerals but reduce the pH.
If I use lactic acid though I can get it as far down as I want, but I'm concerned 4ml of lactic acid (some for the sparge, some for mash) will contribute too much to flavour/sourness and will again have a negative impact. In either case I will need to add some some I can fly sparge at 85°C.

Any suggestions? I have a feeling lactic acid is simply 'too easy' and if it was the be-all and end-all of pH issues it'd be a stable mention for any home brewer. And no, I don't have access to RO water and due to cost I want to avoid distilled. I've attached the Brunwater spreadsheet for those interested.

View attachment Brun Water - Bohemian Pilsner.xls

 

[manticle]

How does a calcium chloride addition up the bicarbonate?

Small acid additions are fine. If concerned, use calcium salt (calcium has benefits beyond pH) and some acid.

 

[Black n Tan]

Melbourne Water is also very soft. I use CaCl2 to get the Ca to 50-60ppm. I also add about 3-3.5% acidulated malt and that gets me to pH5.2. I can't taste the lactic acid, the taste threshold is somewhere well north of 5% acidulated (see braukaiser site for more info).

 

[TheWiggman]

How does a calcium chloride addition up the bicarbonate?

Small acid additions are fine. If concerned, use calcium salt (calcium has benefits beyond pH) and some acid.

Should have said total carbonates. I'm not great (in fact bad) with chemistry. Addition of CaCl increases carbonates in the spreadsheet, upping hardness but reducing pH.
From my view it seems like picking the lesser of 2 evils. I want to target minimal minerals to mirror the style, but can't due to total alkalinity. The water is otherwise close. By adding minerals I can address the alkalinity, but this moves away from the purpose of the exercise.
In any case, low mash pH is the primary goal, matching mineral content the second. From my novice observations, lactic acid seems like the best compromise.

 

[tiprya]

Using lactic acid (or acidulated malt) is fine, but as the others have said, you need to get your calcium levels up for a number of reasons, including yeast health.

Use a small amount of CaCl2 to get calcium where it needs to be, then use lactic acid to get your pH where you need it.

How much lactic does the spreadsheet reckon you need?

 

[manticle]

Don't over complicate it. Drop carbonate level if it's high (at first glance I don't think it is), remove chlorine (strike water heat is usually enough if it's chlorinated water, more drastic if it's chloramines).

Then get calcium to the right level (50+ppm), adjust mash pH with acid or acidulated malt if necessary, then add flavour salts for the brew you are making. Sulphate for hoppy, chloride for malty. Acidify sparge water if you have very alkaline water - otherwise don't worry.

Add some flavour salts to the boil as appropriate.

 

[The Gas Man]

I can understand that I need to add salts to the mash to control ph, but what does adding salts to the boil achieve?

 

[manticle]

Mostly flavour - the sulphate or chloride part affects flavour while the calcium part affects pH (and a bunch of other things). pH is important in both mash and boil though.

For me it's essentially seasoning.

 

[TheWiggman]

All good discussion.
Like all things brewing, there is much to consider. Basic recipe is -

5.0kg floor malted bohemian pilsner (Wey)
0.1kg acidulated malt (Wey)

Step mash using my HERMS system -
35°C acid rest for 2h (optional, but figured I might as well)
65°C sacc rest for 1h
Decoction for 20 mins
75°C mashout for 10 mins
Sparge with 85°C water

Boil for 75 mins using Saaz at 60 min and flameout

The decoction, I understand, extracts calcium and is ideal for a malty pilsner. Hence I'm not too concern with the calcium levels provided I do that right.
I should also note I've made decent beers with no added calcium in the past (and only 10ppm in the water). Not to say this makes it fine, but I'd challenge whether it's necessary if doing a decoction in a pilsner.

Acidulating the sparge water will be necessary if sparging at 85°C.

I'm trying to emulate the water profile to suit a pilsner. I know this is not the right practice, but everything I've read (specifically from wessmith in the link in the first post) maintains to minimise the mineral content and keep the mash pH low when attempting a pilsner. For mine, it seems like the best way to address this is using lactic acid. For other styles of beers I will certainly use mineral additions in the future for reasons you've mentioned Manticle.

tiprya - if using 100gm of acidulated malt, spreadsheet recommends 2.6ml in 25l of sparge water and 1.3ml in 12.5l mash water.

 

[TheWiggman]

How does a calcium chloride addition up the bicarbonate?

Yep, CaCl does not affect bicarbonate, my mistake. Lactic acid however does (noted when adjusted in the spreadsheet).

 

[manticle]

The decoction, I understand, extracts calcium and is ideal for a malty pilsner. Hence I'm not too concern with the calcium levels provided I do that right.
I should also note I've made decent beers with no added calcium in the past (and only 10ppm in the water). Not to say this makes it fine, but I'd challenge whether it's necessary if doing a decoction in a pilsner.

Where does that info come from? I'm not going to go as far as to say it's incorrect as there's much I don't know but I certainly haven't heard of it. Where does the calcium extraction come from? The malt or is the calcium in the water somehow made more 'available' through chemical reaction?

As far as I understand, malt has insufficient calcium for optimum pH and yeast performance which is why it's added in the form of calcium rich brewing liquor or a brewing salt.

Happy to be wrong - it's just something I'm not aware of and haven't come across it in either water chem texts nor articles on decoction.

 

[Black n Tan]

How does decoction or lactic acid affect calcium levels? I would add some CaCl2 as it has a number of benefits including dropping mash pH, better hot break and better yeast health. At 50ppm Ca you still have nice soft water, perfect for a pilsner. Acidulated malt is just malt containing lactic acid, so in the mash just go with lactic acid or acidulated malt to hit your desired mash pH, no need for both. You may chose to add lactic acid to the sparge water to counteract the residual alkalinity of your water.

 

[tiprya]

Also, if you're going to do an acid rest (I wouldn't bother), make sure you calculate the pH drop before adding the acid. Depending on how much of a drop you get will affect how much acid you will need.

It is my impression that correct calcium levels is as important as correct mash pH, but I'd encourage you to do some more reading on it.

 

[TheWiggman]

More reading is definitely in order tiprya. I don't have many good books on this stuff so I'm trusting the concensus opinion.

On the Brun Water spreadsheet the comment re: calcium (hover over cell C12 on worksheet 3) is -

"A minimum of 40 ppm calcium is needed for good yeast health and flocculation performance although lower concentrations can produce good beer (ie Pilsen) if the mash is decocted. 50 ppm calcium is a commonly recommended minimum concentration."

Poor paraphrasing on my behalf. Why "it can produce good beer" do not know.
I don't think I said lactic acid affects calcium levels. Except that if I use it instead of CaCl2, the calcium level does not change.

Adding CaCl2 to a level above 50ppm of Ca puts the chlorides around 100ppm, well above the 14ppm of my water. Does this matter? If not, I'll target 50ppm Ca, ditch the acidulated malt, and make up for the rest with lactic acid.

Works out to be

• Mash - 2.1g CaCl2, 1.3ml lactic acid
• Sparge - 4.3g CaCl2, 0.3ml lactic acid

Cheers for everyone's input. Hopefully if I don't ruin the rest of the process the proof will be in the pudding.

 

[tiprya]

"A minimum of 40 ppm calcium is needed for good yeast health and flocculation performance although lower concentrations can produce good beer (ie Pilsen) if the mash is decocted. 50 ppm calcium is a commonly recommended minimum concentration."

Hmn, that is interesting, I've never heard that before. I will look into this further.

Your proposed plan is what I would do personally, but I'm not an expert on this stuff. Would be interesting to hear what micros do to their water for very pale beers.

 

[manticle]

Calcium aids enzyme function so it is possible that reference to lower levels with decoction refers to that since decoction aids in starch degradation and also ensures the malt is gelatinised properly, thus enabling the enzymes in the main mash better access.

I'm hypothesising.

Calcium is a multi-functional mineral as far as mashing, boiling and fermentation go so even if enzymes need less support in a decoction mash, it is still beneficial to add some. Certainly you can make decent beer without any salt additions - just like you can cook a nice steak without seasoning.

The proof is not in the pudding - the proof of the pudding is in the eating (or drinking).

 

[mabrungard]

Well, even myself and John Palmer were taken in by the myth that brewing water HAS to include at least 50 ppm calcium. There are a number factors that are cited and yeast health and flocculation are primary. Apparently, nobody ever really did the research to confirm those factors. It turns out that there is ample research in a variety of scientific journals that completely refute the need for brewing water to include calcium for yeast health. In fact, the research goes further and points out that high calcium in the absence of magnesium can actually harm yeast health.

Fortunately, typical barley and wheat malt provide magnesium and calcium to wort in the proper ratio. Not surprisingly, yeast have evolved to prefer the high magnesium content and relatively low calcium content of typical wort. The Mg to Ca ratio of typical wort is between 2 and 6 parts Mg to 1 part Ca. This is without the additional Mg or Ca that may be supplied by the water.

It also turns out that Ca has the ability to strip Mg from yeast cells. That is a bad thing since yeast need Mg more than they need Ca. In fact, if the yeast become Mg deficient, than can lose the ability to ferment maltose and maltotriose. Lager yeast are particularly susceptible to this, while ale yeast is not.

But this not to say that calcium has no place in brewing water. It turns out that calcium's role in flocculation is very real. In addition, it has a real role in reducing beerstone in the brewery by precipitating out the calcium oxalate from the wort in the tun. For ale brewing, calcium is necessary. The 50 ppm minimum Ca is a reasonable target for ales. But the picture changes for lagers. Since they rely more on long lagering, they are far less dependent on flocculation than an ale is. So they can be brewed with low calcium water. That is one reason why you often hear that the megabrewers use water with very little mineralization. They don't need calcium and as pointed out above, adding calcium could make the yeast Mg deficient and this may create fermentation problems for the lager yeast.

So, the water that the OP listed above should be fine for lager brewing. No need to add calcium unless you want the flavor ions that are attached to the calcium or want to reduce beerstone problems in your brewing. There is no detriment to yeast health when brewing with low calcium water!

 

[verysupple]

Where does that info come from? I'm not going to go as far as to say it's incorrect as there's much I don't know but I certainly haven't heard of it. Where does the calcium extraction come from? The malt or is the calcium in the water somehow made more 'available' through chemical reaction?

As far as I understand, malt has insufficient calcium for optimum pH and yeast performance which is why it's added in the form of calcium rich brewing liquor or a brewing salt.

Happy to be wrong - it's just something I'm not aware of and haven't come across it in either water chem texts nor articles on decoction.

It's possible that if you had water with fairly high temporary hardness then a decoction might reduce the calcium content slightly as the phosphate reacts with the calcium as it boils and then precipitates. I think I remember reading somewhere about boiling brewing liquor with high temporary hardness first to intentionally do this. Although I could be talking rubbish. Besides, you only boil a small amount in a decoction so the effect would be very small if it happened at all. And with the soft water the OP has it's simply not an issue.

 

[manticle]

Well, even myself and John Palmer were taken in by the myth that brewing water HAS to include at least 50 ppm calcium. There are a number factors that are cited and yeast health and flocculation are primary. Apparently, nobody ever really did the research to confirm those factors. It turns out that there is ample research in a variety of scientific journals that completely refute the need for brewing water to include calcium for yeast health. In fact, the research goes further and points out that high calcium in the absence of magnesium can actually harm yeast health.

Fortunately, typical barley and wheat malt provide magnesium and calcium to wort in the proper ratio. Not surprisingly, yeast have evolved to prefer the high magnesium content and relatively low calcium content of typical wort. The Mg to Ca ratio of typical wort is between 2 and 6 parts Mg to 1 part Ca. This is without the additional Mg or Ca that may be supplied by the water.

It also turns out that Ca has the ability to strip Mg from yeast cells. That is a bad thing since yeast need Mg more than they need Ca. In fact, if the yeast become Mg deficient, than can lose the ability to ferment maltose and maltotriose. Lager yeast are particularly susceptible to this, while ale yeast is not.

But this not to say that calcium has no place in brewing water. It turns out that calcium's role in flocculation is very real. In addition, it has a real role in reducing beerstone in the brewery by precipitating out the calcium oxalate from the wort in the tun. For ale brewing, calcium is necessary. The 50 ppm minimum Ca is a reasonable target for ales. But the picture changes for lagers. Since they rely more on long lagering, they are far less dependent on flocculation than an ale is. So they can be brewed with low calcium water. That is one reason why you often hear that the megabrewers use water with very little mineralization. They don't need calcium and as pointed out above, adding calcium could make the yeast Mg deficient and this may create fermentation problems for the lager yeast.

So, the water that the OP listed above should be fine for lager brewing. No need to add calcium unless you want the flavor ions that are attached to the calcium or want to reduce beerstone problems in your brewing. There is no detriment to yeast health when brewing with low calcium water!

Thanks for this. Turns much of what I thought I knew on its head.

 

[Black n Tan]

Well, even myself and John Palmer were taken in by the myth that brewing water HAS to include at least 50 ppm calcium. There are a number factors that are cited and yeast health and flocculation are primary. Apparently, nobody ever really did the research to confirm those factors. It turns out that there is ample research in a variety of scientific journals that completely refute the need for brewing water to include calcium for yeast health. In fact, the research goes further and points out that high calcium in the absence of magnesium can actually harm yeast health.

Fortunately, typical barley and wheat malt provide magnesium and calcium to wort in the proper ratio. Not surprisingly, yeast have evolved to prefer the high magnesium content and relatively low calcium content of typical wort. The Mg to Ca ratio of typical wort is between 2 and 6 parts Mg to 1 part Ca. This is without the additional Mg or Ca that may be supplied by the water.

It also turns out that Ca has the ability to strip Mg from yeast cells. That is a bad thing since yeast need Mg more than they need Ca. In fact, if the yeast become Mg deficient, than can lose the ability to ferment maltose and maltotriose. Lager yeast are particularly susceptible to this, while ale yeast is not.

But this not to say that calcium has no place in brewing water. It turns out that calcium's role in flocculation is very real. In addition, it has a real role in reducing beerstone in the brewery by precipitating out the calcium oxalate from the wort in the tun. For ale brewing, calcium is necessary. The 50 ppm minimum Ca is a reasonable target for ales. But the picture changes for lagers. Since they rely more on long lagering, they are far less dependent on flocculation than an ale is. So they can be brewed with low calcium water. That is one reason why you often hear that the megabrewers use water with very little mineralization. They don't need calcium and as pointed out above, adding calcium could make the yeast Mg deficient and this may create fermentation problems for the lager yeast.

So, the water that the OP listed above should be fine for lager brewing. No need to add calcium unless you want the flavor ions that are attached to the calcium or want to reduce beerstone problems in your brewing. There is no detriment to yeast health when brewing with low calcium water!

Thanks for update on the current state of thinking. You have shaken my little world and I will try making a lager without calcium, back to what I was doing 1 year ago before I got convinced calcium was a necessary addition.