Pid Temperature Controller Arrived!

[kirem]

My PID temp controllers arrived today, sad thing is I go to Europe tomorrow for a few months.

I have stuff coming in from more beer and crankandstein, hope the missus doesn't lose her sense of humour when I am not here to explain away my purchases.

K

 

[Hoops]

sad thing is I go to Europe tomorrow for a few months.

[post="73457"][/post]​

Oh how terrible it must be for you <_<

Will look foward to hearing when you get back how you use them in your setup.....and of course photos.

Hoops

 

[AndrewQLD]

Ha Ha, monster garage sale at Kirems house next saturday h34r: , HEAPS of brewing equipment :lol: .

Keeps us informed on your PID progress, I have one sitting here and I don't know how to do anything with it :blink: .

Cheers
Andrew

 

[kirem]

I got four.

One is for turning the 'batz, real brewers pump' (tm) on and off to keep mash at the desired temp using a HERMS system.

Another is for keep the HLT at temp. Done a fair bit of research on this on, I haven't purchased them yet, but I plan to use a gas solenoid, electronic ignition and flame detection.

Another is for the KETTLE, mainly to prevent boilovers. Probably some over kill, but I HATE boilovers, such waste and mess. I wonder if the hops that boil over the side, how much this impacts on my taret IBUs.

Last one is for fermentation control, I have converted a 50L sankey keg into a conical fermenter on a stand and it fits inside a glass door fridge I have

All these have programed stepping, and I asked if I could say decrease temp by 1 degree C per day or what ever Noonan recommends for lagering. Also handy for stepped or complex mashing schedules.

Big plans, I hope it all comes together, I have spent enough going down this path and there is no looking back as SWMBO is standing there with a big stick!

I will post pics and part numbers etc, when I get back into it in a few months.

K

 

[Tony]

kirim........

I work with PID controllers for a living.

They wont "turn your pump on oad off"

PID Is short for Praportional, integral and Derivative. each letter of the PID has its own type of controll and whem you use them in conjunction with each other in different combinations they work in different ways.

A PID controller will adjust an output with relation to changes in an input.

Proportional control can be used on its own and will basicly change the output proportionally to the changes in the input. this is basic controll when used by its self and will temd to cycle up and dowd depending on the proportional band that has been set.

Integral control works in relation to the rate of change of the input, hence time taken to change and is measured in seconds. Generally in a PI controlled system the Proportional band will be increased till the system cycles up and down at a constant rate. The time it takes to cycle is recorded and entered as the I component.

D is rarly used and can cause problems for the unaware. The Derivative part of the PID responds to the rate of change of the input. If yor imput sudeny increases rapidly, the D will counteract this but this can plat havoc with the P and I settings and these have to be reduced to acount for D being added into the equasion.

I hope i havnr scared any one but it is important to know that PID is not just a relay that turns on and off to keep the temp right. I dought it will stop boil overs as you will have to stop it boiling for that as you will have to boil it and watch it to stop it boiling over by adding your hops slowly, not all at once. A PID controller wont stop a boil producing froth.

Like i said, it wont turn something on and off either, it usually has a 0-10v or 4-20 ma output and will adjust this output acording to the changes in the input.......... if you know what i mean.

PID control is not simple stuff, you dont just hook it up and off it goes like a relay controller that turns on and off. It requires tuning, knowledge and lots os specialised equipment that costs lots of money.

It wont make better beer either.......... sorry but i just dint think its necesary, its nice to have and cool to brag about but i work with ir all the time, i have access to the technology and i wont bother, it wont make any difference unless your keen on keeping your brew within 0.1 deg through tha mash.

hope i didnt scare anyone...........

cheers.

 

[kirem]

Tony,

What I got has 0-5vDC SSR output. the controllers can be set to on/off OR use the PID function. I plan to use SSR to switch mains to the pump at long cycling time.

What is wrong with having a PID controller determine how long a relay needs to be turned on to activate a pump or element or gas solenoid to achieve a set change in temp, measured by either P I or D or combination and use this information to make a better questimate at how long to keep the relay on or off for next time it needs to do it.

I am interested to know what specialised equipment is needed? I ask as I too have worked with PID software control in the past , all be it with RF and never ran into any problems. I believe what I want to do is a very simple PID application and has been many times with incubators and kilns.

With regard to boilovers, I simplified what I plan to do.

This particular controller can cycle its output to achieve what it wants not simply vary a coltage or current, although it can do this as well, it was its ability to cycle a SSR at programmable rates that will do the job for me.

I appreciate you input and hope that if I run into trouble I can ask some questions of you.

You didn't scare me, I used to fix electronics for a living!

Cheers,

K

 

[Tony]

hey kirem

i wasnt trying to be a wise arse

PID copntrol is a bit of a waste of expense if you are just goning to use it to switch a relay on and off.

I have thought of getting PID controll to controll the voltage to a HWS element to regulate the temp but if you want on/off controll then just use that.

I use onron on/off controllers with PT100 probes in my firmenters to switch on and off an electric blanket during the winter for my firmenters and it keeps the brew to within 0.1 deg which is better than most can achieve.

I dont theink PID control could do much better than this.

we use PID controll at work to controll steam flow into very large processes involving steam heat exchangers etc and it is needed to make up for the constantly changing input temperatures. your mash ton and boiler arnt going to be fluctuating that much so PID will be over kill is all i was saying, If you want to use it.... go for it. it is the best form of controll available.

let us know how it goes and some pics of your system would be great.

cheers.

tony.

 

[vlbaby]

kirem,
I have a few of these PID controllers in my brewery setup, and I can tell you that they are more than capable of working in PID mode with an ON/OFF output. The controller will alter the duty cycle and frequency of the switching to emulate full proportional control. Also most controllers have an auto tune function that will make the need for specialised equipment unneccessary.
However, what tony says is true, PID is un-neccesary for what you need. If you are using it for a fridge, the constant on/off switching will eventually damage the fridge or at least trip a fuse /breaker.
If its used on a HLT it will have to be auto tuned first which will probably take 1 hour or so to settle. If its used as on/off control it will settle very quickly.

Anyway it sounds like you've got some big plans for your brewery. Keep us postered how it all goes. :chug:


vlbaby.