Pid - Improving Ramp Time

[bignath]

Hi PID users, got a question i cant seem to find ananswer to..

I have two elements in my pot.
One is controlled by my PID, the second is controlled by me flipping a switch.

I have auto tuned my system using just the pid element. When i ramp from mash to mashout, it takes just over 20mins instead ofthe 15 i have programmed. Thisis justusing the pid element.

When i did a second water run, i used the manjal element to ramp and letthecontrolled element kick in only when it needed. This had no problems at all ramping 1 deg a minute or faster.

Would it bebetter todo this, or should i just extend theexpected ramp time to 20mins and leave it to the controller?

My thoughts are:
1. Is it worthwhile doing a mashout that takes 20mins to get to?
2. Is using the manual element to ramp, supplemented by the pid element screwing with the pid's algorhythm, diminishing its level of control?
3. Ifi extend the ramp time, will the element still lag behind (same % power output) or will the extended time simply give the element more time to catchup?
4. Is there a setting where i can check or increase how much power the pid is giving the element?

Cheers for your thoughts,

Nath

 

[QldKev]

Same issue as with King Brown Brewing here

What I posted there for him to try is

Have you got
Ctrl = 3
run = 1
ctl <= 4
CF = 2

Then ensure you are in AT mode

Also worth having a read of this post

To answer specific questions...
1. Is it worthwhile doing a mashout that takes 20mins to get to?
To me yes, I built a big sized system so I don't have to brew that often, and when I do I'm not in a hurry. So I like to do the mash in for prot rest all the way through to mash out.

2. Is using the manual element to ramp, supplemented by the pid element screwing with the pid's algorhythm, diminishing its level of control?
Not sure, I though they only did their magic calibration in the 'auto tune' and just assume it stayed constant.

3. Ifi extend the ramp time, will the element still lag behind (same % power output) or will the extended time simply give the element more time to catchup?
Not sure, you would need to test it

4. Is there a setting where i can check or increase how much power the pid is giving the element?
To measure the current drawn probably the easiest way is using one of these. This is the device I've been measuring power usage around my house. Was a bit over $20 from memory. I'm not aware of any mode to display the output let in auto mode, only when in manual and you manually set it.


QldKev

 

[booargy]

check the OUTH setting this should be 100. Section 4.12 in the manual explains it. This is a very handy setting at low temps or small batches I reduce 3kw element to 50%.

 

[bignath]

Cheers Kev/Booargy.

Kev, i read that thread whilst on my search but didn't take too much notice of it as it was for a Sestos as opposed to the Auberins that i've got. Are settings/menu system the same? I'll assume so, as i've bugged you with enough questions recently for you to know that i've got the Auber .

I will extend my ramp to mashout time to 20-25mins and see if the element can keep up, as obviously i'd like THAT element to do the ramping (automation and all that..) but in the meantime,

With those "menu titles"...

Is CF the cool function? If so, mine is set to 2 (Celsius).

What are the other ones? (Ctrl, run, ctl) and what do they refer to? Can't find any clues as to what they respond to in the Auber manual.

Cheers again.

 

[QldKev]

Cheers Kev/Booargy.

Kev, i read that thread whilst on my search but didn't take too much notice of it as it was for a Sestos as opposed to the Auberins that i've got. Are settings/menu system the same? I'll assume so, as i've bugged you with enough questions recently for you to know that i've got the Auber .

I will extend my ramp to mashout time to 20-25mins and see if the element can keep up, as obviously i'd like THAT element to do the ramping (automation and all that..) but in the meantime,

With those "menu titles"...

Is CF the cool function? If so, mine is set to 2 (Celsius).

What are the other ones? (Ctrl, run, ctl) and what do they refer to? Can't find any clues as to what they respond to in the Auber manual.

Cheers again.

It mentioned on that other forum the Sestos is a Auber rip off, the only thing they have changed some menu names. I believe most functionality is the same, they probably changed a bit just for patents. Basically (on the Sestos) there are 2 menu options that both need to be set to auto for fully auto. Post a link to the manual and I'll see what I can dig up.

On the Sestos the Cf = System function. 2=Heater, 3=Cooler

The other Ctrl, run, ctl are options on the Sestos, but probably have a different display name from the Auber.

QldKev

 

[bignath]

Sweet, thanks again kev.

Here are the links to the manuals: (It's a two part jobbie - one generic for the controller, and the other "supplementary" section for ramp soak models)

SYL 2352P Manual:
http://auberins.com/images/Manual/Manual%20version%203.4.pdf

Supplementary Ramp/Soak Additional Manual:
http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYLXXXP%...anual%201.5.pdf

Cheers mate,

Nath

 

[black_labb]

I wouldn't think it would be an issue manually switching on the second element, just make sure you manually switch it off. On the other hand I don't think waiting for the mash out is a big issue when you don't have to be there to do it yourself.

I've been doing step mashes with the last step before mash out at 72 so it's only 6 degrees for me to get to 78*. If you are doing a single infusion followed by a mash out it is more of a wait. Why not do a slow ramp from your mash temp to 78 that cuts into your single infusion (say 40 mins @65 and 30 min ramp from 65 to 78. The enzimes will still be active for half of the ramp and you only wait for 70 mins after mash in.

 

[bignath]

Why not do a slow ramp from your mash temp to 78 that cuts into your single infusion (say 40 mins @65 and 30 min ramp from 65 to 78. The enzimes will still be active for half of the ramp and you only wait for 70 mins after mash in.

I quite like that idea BL!

With the malts we are using nowadays, should be fine i reckon.

Cheers mate, i hadn't thought of that.

 

[QldKev]

Had a quick read, try setting P=1

and see how you go.

QldKev

 

[Kingbrownbrewing]

Hi PID users, got a question i cant seem to find ananswer to..

I have two elements in my pot.
One is controlled by my PID, the second is controlled by me flipping a switch.

I have auto tuned my system using just the pid element. When i ramp from mash to mashout, it takes just over 20mins instead ofthe 15 i have programmed. Thisis justusing the pid element.

When i did a second water run, i used the manjal element to ramp and letthecontrolled element kick in only when it needed. This had no problems at all ramping 1 deg a minute or faster.

Would it bebetter todo this, or should i just extend theexpected ramp time to 20mins and leave it to the controller?

My thoughts are:
1. Is it worthwhile doing a mashout that takes 20mins to get to?
2. Is using the manual element to ramp, supplemented by the pid element screwing with the pid's algorhythm, diminishing its level of control?
3. Ifi extend the ramp time, will the element still lag behind (same % power output) or will the extended time simply give the element more time to catchup?
4. Is there a setting where i can check or increase how much power the pid is giving the element?

Cheers for your thoughts,

Nath

Also Nath, if you press Set without holding down on the SESTOS it will tell you how much power it is sending to the element.

Thanks Kev for you help with this, I must have missed you reply to my post as I was away for the weekend.

I will try those values and report back.

As I stated everything is working beautifully except for the ramp times.

 

[JPAT]

Could you control the second element from the alarm output via a control relay?

 

[geneabovill]

I've got the Sestos one from eBay via Pratty1, and I set it up to autotune (took three hours on my rig), and found the ramp times super slow.

Rooted around on the intertron for a bit and read (somewhere) that adjusting the Proportional (that's the 'P' in PID) improves the ramp time considerably. From 40mins to 15 ... no overshoot. YMMV.

 

[raven19]

Nath,

Interesting topic this one.

My 2c... I would be looking to record details on each beer on your system from recipe right through to FG.

If your batch size is similar each time you brew, can can simply adjust your recipes accordingly if you are concerned with excessive conversion of your malt to fermentables. i.e. if you are too low on your planned FG, look to increase mash temp by say 2 degrees next time.

Considering your ramp time is planned 15 but taking 20 - is this going to change the wort fermentability much?

fwiw my PID controlled RIMS takes 10 - 15mins to mash out, maybe more if its a bigger batch/volume. I tend to brew mostly the same sized batch so I get great consistency for similar beer types.

Another option could be to go a bigger element?

Subscribed!

 

[porky]

why are you only controlling one element with the pid? why not both? I have a hex with 9000 watts of power and 9 meters of half inch copper in about 12 litres of water and ramp times are like 4 degrees a minute. I start mash with cold water and hit the start button. Come back later and five steps are done and waiting for me to sparge. Don't have to be there for switching anything. Sparge water in HLT is on timer so it is 78 degres when mash is done. I pump and stir the entire time, and the PID starts that as well using a latching relay, while still controlling the heat on and off.

 

[bignath]

Also Nath, if you press Set without holding down on the SESTOS it will tell you how much power it is sending to the element.

Thanks KBB. Pretty sure on my Auber though, if i "press" (as opposed to press and hold) the SET button, it switches to tell me what step i'm on and how much time is left etc instead of the power output.
I wonder if this could be due to me using an incorrect operating mode, like A/M can be set to either 1, 2 or 3. I might be using the wrong one...

Could you control the second element from the alarm output via a control relay?

Thanks Jozef. If i understand the manual correctly, yeah i should be able to do something like this, but i reckon that would overload my power circuit that i'm power up the PID with.

I've got the Sestos one from eBay via Pratty1, and I set it up to autotune (took three hours on my rig), and found the ramp times super slow.

Rooted around on the intertron for a bit and read (somewhere) that adjusting the Proportional (that's the 'P' in PID) improves the ramp time considerably. From 40mins to 15 ... no overshoot. YMMV.

What setting is the factory default for your Sestos "P" setting, and what have you currently got it set to to get such an improvement in ramp times? Interested in this one..

Nath,

Interesting topic this one.

My 2c... I would be looking to record details on each beer on your system from recipe right through to FG.

If your batch size is similar each time you brew, can can simply adjust your recipes accordingly if you are concerned with excessive conversion of your malt to fermentables. i.e. if you are too low on your planned FG, look to increase mash temp by say 2 degrees next time.

Considering your ramp time is planned 15 but taking 20 - is this going to change the wort fermentability much?

fwiw my PID controlled RIMS takes 10 - 15mins to mash out, maybe more if its a bigger batch/volume. I tend to brew mostly the same sized batch so I get great consistency for similar beer types.

Another option could be to go a bigger element?

Subscribed!

Cheers mate, i do keep fairly strict notes on each recipe (although i haven't brewed with the PID as yet). Only finished the enclosure a week or so ago, then went away for christmas/new year stuff. Now i'm back trying to wet run it before it sees any grain. Rest assured the note taking will still be top priority.
Generally speaking, i'm either doing double batch or singles. Usually singles as my consumption has slowed down a fair bit over the past few years so that singles i can usually keep up stocks with. I tend to do two singles in the same week (or few days if possible) Once every three weeks.
Not sure if an extended ramp time will change (either in a good or bad way) my beers profile or not. I was under the impression that it's always advisable to ramp to mash out to "lock in" the fermentability profile, as fast as possible. I'm coming from predominantly a 3V background in my brewing so mash out was simply just adding a really hot infusion to almost immediately get to mash out temp. To me, 20mins to get there SEEMS too slow. No idea if it actually is or not though...open to opinions on this.

re: bigger element.
Have not gone "bigger" but today i pulled the trigger on two uxcell 2kw u shaped elements that will be replacing the two kettle elements currently in use. I'm using the current vessel (60lt aluminium pot) as a guinea pig to test all my theories before buying one more pot once i've settled on my design, and final build.
Whilst the output power is slightly lower (2kw vs 2.2kw for the kettle elements) i'm thinking the extra physical size may heat more evenly, and at the very worst, i'm sure they'll last longer than the cheapo kettle ones. Can also be mounted lower in the pot than the kettle ones too which for my single vessel rig design is a good thing.

Will go investigate "p" settings, do another wet run but with extending ramp time to 20mins or so.


Any more thoughts out there.....keep 'em coming (please)..

 

[bignath]

why are you only controlling one element with the pid? why not both? I have a hex with 9000 watts of power and 9 meters of half inch copper in about 12 litres of water and ramp times are like 4 degrees a minute. I start mash with cold water and hit the start button. Come back later and five steps are done and waiting for me to sparge. Don't have to be there for switching anything. Sparge water in HLT is on timer so it is 78 degres when mash is done. I pump and stir the entire time, and the PID starts that as well using a latching relay, while still controlling the heat on and off.

Sorry, budwiser, would have replied to your post too, but it took me a while to publish the novel above your post

Wouldn't running two elements off the one PID circuit require twice the power supply of running just the one? I only have domestic power points available to me at the moment, so i'm pretty sure i can't do that.

would be sweet if i'm wrong though...

 

[Cocko]

Nath, no need to program step 'time' if you have your hy settings correct!

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=955894

Cheers

 

[browndog]

why are you only controlling one element with the pid? why not both? I have a hex with 9000 watts of power and 9 meters of half inch copper in about 12 litres of water and ramp times are like 4 degrees a minute. I start mash with cold water and hit the start button. Come back later and five steps are done and waiting for me to sparge. Don't have to be there for switching anything. Sparge water in HLT is on timer so it is 78 degres when mash is done. I pump and stir the entire time, and the PID starts that as well using a latching relay, while still controlling the heat on and off.

9000W .............how many hectolitres is your system mate.?

 

[bignath]

Nath, no need to program step 'time' if you have your hy settings correct!

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=955907

Cheers

Cocko,

i have hy-1(deviation high), hy-2 (deviation low) and hy (hysteresis) settings mentioned in the manual. Which one(s) are you referring to mate?

And for example, if i was trying to get from 66 mash, to 78 mashout, what would those settings look like?

Cheers fella.

 

[Cocko]

9000W .............how many hectolitres is your system mate.?

I would assume it is 4x 2200w elements..... My kettle runs 3x 2400w element, so its not craz....... HANG ON, DID he say HX?!?