Pid - Improving Ramp Time

[browndog]

I would assume it is 4x 2200w elements..... My kettle runs 3x 2400w element, so its not craz....... HANG ON, DID he say HX?!?

Indeed Sir, sorry about the hijack BN, but a 9000W HX, I must know more.

 

[porky]

Wouldn't running two elements off the one PID circuit require twice the power supply of running just the one? I only have domestic power points available to me at the moment, so i'm pretty sure i can't do that.

If you can run both on two different circuits at the same time than you can run both off the pid....I will assume you are using an ssr for the heating element controlled by the pid. If that is true, than just add another ssr for the other element and power each ssr on a different circuit and have the pid control both ssr's. I have three phase on the brew stand, so really am doing the same thing, just with three circuits and one three phase ssr. No difference really. Other things on the brew stand are single phase and I just use one phase with the proper breaker and run what ever I want. I have 96 amps to the brewery....but that is just me

 

[bignath]

Indeed Sir, sorry about the hijack BN, but a 9000W HX, I must know more.

no probs bd, got me intrigued as well.

9000w in a 12lt hex? How would even the most advanced PID handle that potential overshoot waiting to happen??

 

[porky]

Indeed Sir, sorry about the hijack BN, but a 9000W HX, I must know more.

Three 3 Kw elements. Three phase ssr, three 20 amp breakers. Can run one or two or three. Do run all three all the time. HLT only has one 2400 element....not in a hurry for hot water really.

 

[bignath]

If you can run both on two different circuits at the same time than you can run both off the pid....I will assume you are using an ssr for the heating element controlled by the pid. If that is true, than just add another ssr for the other element and power each ssr on a different circuit and have the pid control both ssr's.

WOW, that's just caved my head in mate. I'm not too flash when it comes to this tech stuff, although i was able to wire my own enclosure which seemed really daunting at the time, so i enjoy the learning and the challenge.

Struggling to get my head around this..

If i have a PID which is being fed from a standard 10A? power point, and this is feeding (via an SSR) a 2200W element, even though the SSR is really just a switch, as soon as it turns on, aren't i pulling almost all the 10A from the power point already?
I would have thought that by adding another SSR to control the second element, as soon as that SSR turns on with the first one, i'd be pulling probably around 18 or so amps wouldn't i?

Have added the wiring diagram of my enclosure...

 

[porky]

no probs bd, got me intrigued as well.

9000w in a 12lt hex? How would even the most advanced PID handle that potential overshoot waiting to happen??

not at all. I think your turning the second element on and off confuses the PID. It will handle any power, just needs to learn on a level playing field. Adding heat separately will only confuse it I reckon.

 

[bignath]

not at all. I think your turning the second element on and off confuses the PID. It will handle any power, just needs to learn on a level playing field. Adding heat separately will only confuse it I reckon.

yeah, that was one of my concerns by doing what i described in the OP.

I really want to get this sorted just using the PID anyway, as the main aim for building this rig, was as close to full automation as possible. Seems kind of a waste of time if i have to stand there and wait for the mash out step so i can engage a second element.

 

[Cocko]

Cocko,

i have hy-1(deviation high), hy-2 (deviation low) and hy (hysteresis) settings mentioned in the manual. Which one(s) are you referring to mate?

And for example, if i was trying to get from 66 mash, to 78 mashout, what would those settings look like?

Cheers fella.

So you want to set HY-1 and HY2 to 1.

Then to get from 66 -> 78 mash out your steps would look like: [Say a 40 step on 66]

Step x C66 T40
Step x C66 T1 <- this is the variant that will allow it to get to 78 before the timer starts
Step x C78 T0 <- ZERO, will stop the processing but maintain the temp, so a set and come back to it when ever...

Make sense?

Read through that thread I linked to, there is some good points in it, as far as programming goes.

Hope it helps, if not, hit me up mate.. I spent a bit of time getting my head around mine but once you get it, its like you are Harry Potter with the elder wond.

Or insert own nerdy reference.

Cheers!

 

[porky]

If i have a PID which is being fed from a standard 10A? power point, and this is feeding (via an SSR) a 2200W element, even though the SSR is really just a switch, as soon as it turns on, aren't i pulling almost all the 10A from the power point already?
I would have thought that by adding another SSR to control the second element, as soon as that SSR turns on with the first one, i'd be pulling probably around 18 or so amps wouldn't i?

Have added the wiring diagram of my enclosure...

View attachment 59794

The point you are missing is that where ever you are getting the power to heat the second element is what you need to still use. Just control the ssr with the same PID. Just add a lead with a plug to the second ssr and plug it into where ever you are doing it now. That is if I am understanding that you can heat them both at the same time at the moment? Because yes, the ssr is just a switch, and the power to do the switching is almost nothing. Nothing to do with the load. My ssr's are only dc switched and I use 24 volts, so nothing to do with the load side at all.

 

[bignath]

So you want to set HY-1 and HY2 to 1.

Then to get from 66 -> 78 mash out your steps would look like: [Say a 40 step on 66]

Step x C66 T40
Step x C66 T1 <- this is the variant that will allow it to get to 78 before the timer starts
Step x C78 T0 <- ZERO, will stop the processing but maintain the temp, so a set and come back to it when ever...

Make sense?

Read through that thread I linked to, there is some good points in it, as far as programming goes.

Hope it helps, if not, hit me up mate.. I spent a bit of time getting my head around mine but once you get it, its like you are Harry Potter with the elder wond.

Or what insert nerdy reference.

Cheers!

i definitely understand the "hold" step at 78 mashout. Dunno why i didn't think of that earlier, as i have a "hold" (0mins) step as step 1 for my strike temp.
A little confused by the hy settings and what they do though? Im sure i'm missing something simple with that though, and hope it will make sense soon.

Would there be any negative effects to my beers by it taking 20mins or longer to ramp up to 78 mashout, as opposed to say a 10min ramp if i could speed it up?
I guess im not even sure if it's a "problem" other than me being impatient...

 

[browndog]

Three 3 Kw elements. Three phase ssr, three 20 amp breakers. Can run one or two or three. Do run all three all the time. HLT only has one 2400 element....not in a hurry for hot water really.

What about your kettle mate?

 

[Cocko]

i definitely understand the "hold" step at 78 mashout. Dunno why i didn't think of that earlier, as i have a "hold" (0mins) step as step 1 for my strike temp.
A little confused by the hy settings and what they do though? Im sure i'm missing something simple with that though, and hope it will make sense soon.

Would there be any negative effects to my beers by it taking 20mins or longer to ramp up to 78 mashout, as opposed to say a 10min ramp if i could speed it up?
I guess im not even sure if it's a "problem" other than me being impatient...

So the HY-1 and HY-2 setting are saying "I will not start the timer until we are within 'X' [The setting] range of the step temp. So setting it to '1' means it will run the time set until it is within 1 degree - basically at - the desired temp.

Step x C66 T40
Step x C66 T1 <- this is saying, I will keep heading to 78* until I am within 1* - THEN I will start the count.
Step x C78 T0

Check out how I currently have mine programmed and it may make some more sense:
PDF:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=961345

Cheers

 

[porky]

What about your kettle mate?

Kettle is gas. Use one of those loud folkers, (the name escapes me ATM, but some call it a turkey burner) but the radio is still louder so doesn't matter. No neighbors near by.

 

[bignath]

The point you are missing is that where ever you are getting the power to heat the second element is what you need to still use. Just control the ssr with the same PID. Just add a lead with a plug to the second ssr and plug it into where ever you are doing it now. That is if I am understanding that you can heat them both at the same time at the moment? Because yes, the ssr is just a switch, and the power to do the switching is almost nothing. Nothing to do with the load. My ssr's are only dc switched and I use 24 volts, so nothing to do with the load side at all.

Kind of like this?

 

[browndog]

Kettle is gas. Use one of those loud folkers, (the name escapes me ATM, but some call it a turkey burner) but the radio is still louder so doesn't matter. No neighbors near by.

Gas...bugger, I though you may have had an old Bessemer converter or something.

 

[porky]

Kind of like this?

View attachment 59795

Yes, exactly like that.

 

[porky]

Gas...bugger, I though you may have had an old Bessemer converter or something.

Naw...electric would be cheaper for me as we have 5.5 Kw solar on the roof and electric is free, but I like to boil with gas....I use two different kettles, and another large pot to boil rice and corn for some beers. Handy that way.

 

[bignath]

Yes, exactly like that.

Wicked. Thanks mate. Makes perfect sense now.

Am trying to get permission to install dedicated power out to my brewery, as at the moment, i have to unplug stuff from two different circuits to feed both mains power inputs to my enclosure. With adding a second element to the PID, i'd need three outlets for my wiring schematic a few posts back (which i currently don't have), but your idea is a top one, and one i've now filed away in my "Combrewter" (trademark :lol: ) for when i can achieve it.

Thanks for your help, i wouldn't have thought of doing that.

Nath

 

[bignath]

Actually, while i've got you budwiser,

in theory, would i only be limited to the total dc low output as to how many SSR's and ultimately elements, that i could install running them in this way?

so for example, if each SSR required 12vdc to switch, and the pid could output 36vdc.....could i add a third ssr and element? Hypothetically of course...

 

[porky]

Mate, You do great drawings....I can wire anything, build most anything, but don't draw any of it. I just can't.

Anyway....glad it makes sense. It means you understand it, and I see that you do. Go for the extra power to the brewery if you can. It opens a world of opportunities really. I just recieved a small PLC and will soon be brewing while I sleep!

Cheers,

Mark