perspective

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

$50,000 dollar subsidy to every worker,minimum wage $125k. Why? I'm sorry Holden that's not what I pay my taxes for. I feel for the workers greatly but it's the unions that are to blame. Good on the government for saying no to more hand outs.

 

[manticle]

Over the top in the wrong direction

 

[real_beer]

Browndog sorry to hear about your mate. I don't think any worker in the world really minds inductions & health & safety procedures they have to abide by, they're just fed up with the ridiculous extremes litigation & insurance concerns has driven it too.

No matter what number of rules & regulations are put in place its high training & education standards on the job from skilled experienced co-workers that get a job done properly & safely. Unfortunately these days company bean counters shed & shave the workers as markets go up & down so they odds of them having long term experts in the workplace is minimal. When experts get discarded a lot look for new opportunities and often change to another field deciding they'll never return to the old one. Very quickly after the turnstiles start spinning like that its the bean counters that are left running things, and what we have now is what we're left with.

Twenty years ago we had a young 16 yo student from Churchie Boy's Grammar in Brisbane doing work experience with us (plumbing supplies). The boss had him constantly tidying up & sweeping the floors, I've always believed work experience should entail the person involved actually learning something about the job so I approached my boss to give him a fair shake of the sav so to speak. The next morning he was put under my supervision and we set to work. After 5 mins he says "What time is it?" Me "7:15". Ten mins later "What the time? Me "7:25 haven't you got a watch?". Him "Yes but it's a really good one & I don't want to scratch the glass so I left it at home". "Fair enough" I thought. This went on until about nine o'clock when he asked me again. By this time I getting a little pissed off so I just held up my watch for him to see. "What time is it?" he asks again. Me "I just showed you!" I snap back at him. Him (wait for it ........... wait for it ............. okay here it is) ................. "Yes but that's an analogue watch, I can only read digital". I couldn't speak for about a full 30 seconds, I just couldn't believe it. When I recovered I calmly asked him "Can't you look at my watch and figure out by yourself how it works?" " A six yo should be able to work it out, look the numbers 1 to 12 a hour hand & a second hand". Him "No I don't need too my watch is digital" He's probably a millionaire now, but more likely he's one of the been counters above or worst still a WH&SO. I don't know how some people get through life but I let my boss have him back for cleaning duties after morning smoko.

Hey, lets not forget after the inductions are completed the 'Take Five' slips kick in :huh:

 

[jlm]

education standards on the job from skilled experienced co-workers that get a job done properly & safely.

With proper supervision, I think this is far more valuable than any induction or on line course.

 

[browndog]

Can I ask what happened?

Around the mid 90s they were clearing up the land for the new star city casino at Darling harbour. There was a lot of old rail lines around there. The building company I worked for had a contract to do some renovation work on an old rail bridge abutment. Scotty was in his mid 20s and always used to pester me for a job whenever he saw me at the pub. I eventually got him a job as a Labourer on another crew, the Foreman on that crew was a good mate of mine, a good bloke and a good operator. As we did a lot of highrise work we were fairly safety concious, but there was no safety culture back then. Scotty excelled and he soon ended up Second in charge of the crew when they got the job on the Bridge abutment, I'd been to the site and it was a bridge circa 1900, no more rai line on it. On the ground outside it there was a small fenced off substation that appeared to have all the cabling to it disconnected. The foreman for the prime contractor told our guy that everything was good and work was right to commence. The abutment had a locked door and some windows in it. The guys had to knock the door in with a sledge hammer, and went inside. It was apparent that noone had been in there for 20 or 30 yrs. On the back wall were some thick cables coming out of the wall and going back in. Scotty grabbed one of these and copped 11,000 volts. Killed him instantly, the guys with him were all mates and very traumatised over the incident as the electricity blew holes in him and left him smoking. I don't really blame anyone for Scottys death, it could have happened to anyone, but I,ll never complain about having to jump through hoops for safetys sake.

 

[Not For Horses]

Fark that is horrible.
The guy that gave the all clear on the power should've had his arse handed to him.
I absolutely agree that jumping through hoops for safety sake is important. In fact I wouldn't really call that having to jump through hoops.
My gripe is and always will be the other hoops we have to jump through for no real reason.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I feel for the workers greatly but it's the unions that are to blame. Good on the government for saying no to more hand outs.

The unions are not to blame. It irks me everytime a business goes toes up the first thing that happens is they blame the unions.

In Holdens case the union actually went to management to offer a reduction in pay to try and keep jobs.

Before you go bashing unions, have a think about how people like Gina etc would treat you if there where no unions.

 

[breakbeer]

I farken HATE unions & will NEVER be a member of one

The next time a fat arsed union official tries to bully me with scare tactics & refuses me entry to a site I won't just accept it & walk off. I don't HAVE TO be a member & there are rules against it. I could've had the whole site shut down & the size of this job would've meant a shitload of fines & hundreds of workers being sent home

 

[Bridges]

I farken HATE unions & will NEVER be a member of one The next time a fat arsed union official tries to bully me with scare tactics & refuses me entry to a site I won't just accept it & walk off. I don't HAVE TO be a member & there are rules against it. I could've had the whole site shut down & the size of this job would've meant a shitload of fines & hundreds of workers being sent home

No worries. Don't enjoy an 8 hour day or a 40 hour week. Or even a weekend. Don't expect any safety in your workplace. Don't enjoy any of the benefit's the union movement has gained us.
Don't let one or two tosser's put you off, and tar all unions and or unionists with the same brush.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

So you dont take holidays,sickpay,overtime rates.

Its not exactly fair that non union members bash unions but will accept the conditions that unions fight for. Most of worksite safety is a direct result of unions. I dont allways agree with some of their tactics and bullying, but they have there place.

 

[pk.sax]

Unfortunately a lot of training organizations never admit that some knuckleheads cannot be taught. If people fail it is seen as the fault of the instructor. Not that this is an excuse for idiots as above, but I remember in trade school, a teacher telling me he wanted to fail most of the class as they were idiots who didn't pay attention. They all deserved to be failed, but it would have made him look bad. Not the other way round, and this guy was a fantastic teacher.

Mum's a teacher. After nearly 10 years of teaching vocational skills in seniour school in India she came here and was genuinely shocked by the mollycoddled approach to passing kids in school. Over there she was quite used to taking on kids from rural areas that didn't have good English or maths and lifting their standards so they can get work ready. Here, stupid **** like letting kids re-sit exams and ignoring their first one if they do well the second time. Seriously. You're gonna get to re-do for free on the job!?! Governments and their 'inclusive' policies just breed these idiots. And he parents who come have a cry to the school principal every time the teacher pulls up their kid. How dare the teachers call out their kid for not working hard!

Training has been such a dirty word in small aviation that it does my head in. Appys coming from aviation Australia that have no clue how to do a zonal inspection, in fact, what to look for? Limited understanding of tooling control and why they should track those things and dual cert for jobs so they don't leave tools behind (didn't help when their boss leaves rags in wrong places). Bare minimum linguistic skills - how the heck are they supposed to write down details of what they did cohesively if they can barely express themselves properly. I'm not saying they are all like that but the ones that are get passed just the same as the others. They give others a bad name. And at work finding experienced technicians to teach and train them on these things is a luxury. I'm sure the big ones with their limited appy intakes manage fine but there are scores of them going through small places that have no concept of training properly. Their owners seem to give less than a **** about training, they are making a buck somehow and that's the #1.

And then people crib about paperwork because it forces them to follow the steps... Unfortunately the boss makes the experienced ones do the paperwork because the rest don't have a clue what it's about most of the time.

 

[manticle]

A lot of the fault, at least at my workplace is very few are interested in proper training of new colleagues. Whether it's an unwillingness to skill share or just laziness, I'm not sure but if I work with people or manage people, I want to know they can do the job I send them to do without looking over their shoulder or having to check and maybe redo their work.

At the end of the day, having skilled competent colleagues/staff makes my job easier, the competent interested people find work more rewarding and give more and hell - I just like watching people learn and improve.

Forgetting the OHS system for a moment - take the time to instruct noobs. **** off the disinterested, unmotivated ones, invest in those who really want to learn and make them care about their safety and the safety of others. We can't control the bureaucracy but we can control our immediate environment.

At the moment, I'm insisting that the lady responsible for paper/database tracking of collection material learns how to drive a forklift, cut wood using power saws, handle art/collection material and develops good packing skills. She loves it (her job would be dull if the traditional sit in front of a computer thing was all she did), it helps me as we have a very small team and a lot of work and above all - **** gets done, no-one cuts their hand off, or hot glues their belly button or drives a forklift into the wall or a 2000 year old pre-columbian stone head. Everyone wins.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its a real shame that we no longer train apprentices like we used to. Years ago there was a push that we all needed to go to uni. This is all well and good, university education is a good thing, but we stopped training tradesmen, the sparkies,plumbers,builders,mechanics etc. Then we whinge about a lack of skilled tradesmen. The way apprentices are trained now is a joke. They get passed around various employers throughout their training and fail to pick up on the basic and important skills. I have worked with younger trademan and it dissapoints me that I have to sit down and show them how to do a job correctly.

 

[Airgead]

but it's the unions that are to blame. Good on the government for saying no to more hand outs.

Nahhh... its because they make **** cars that no one wants to buy.

 

[shaunous]

When I was supervising the Caterpillar workshop in Brisbane a coupla years back they inherited a rapid apprentice trade scheme, we had kids hired as apprentices and trained and signed off as tradesman in 2 years, instead of the 4, needless to say we had a shitload of useless tradesman after that, and we quickly went back to the original 4 years apprenticeship and 3 years of theory as it used to be. As Heavy Diesel mechanics it's impossible to do an apprenticeship in 2 years, trades like carpentry may be different.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I was once told it takes 4yrs for an apprenticeship, but you truly do not become a proficiant tradesman untill 10yrs....

I tend to think there is a lot of truth in that.

A mate of mine used to ask the queastion " who is the most dangerous person in a workshop" his answer was " the 2nd/3rd year apprentice. He has just enough knowledge to use every peice of equipment at its most dangerous...."

 

[warra48]

Agree with you Ducati, the old saying of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" certainly rings true.

I never worked on the tools beyond my teenage years, but for several decades managed legal/insurance personal injury claims under workers comp and from other causes, so am well versed in how the most serious of injuries occurred.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Depends how you look at it.

I can see that OH&S is a pain in the arse, geez every time I go onto a major construction/developement site for the first time, I have to provide a work method statement, a risk assessment, recent service history of equipment and machinery, sit through a 45min - 1 hour site induction, which might only be done on Mondays, Wednesdays or Fridays, wear a long sleeve shirt and long pants in the middle of summer, wear gloves, hard hat, eye protection ect at all times and promise not to say **** out loud and only fart in designated farting areas.

But guess what, I'm prepared to jump through their silly hoops and they are prepared to give me their work.

Other people are whinging that there's no work and I'm flat out.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I can see the point of a site induction, as long as its not along drawn out event.

The basic idea is to show where to go when things happen, things like fire ext placement, toilets etc. Areas that are out-of-bounds or require addional PPP or specifice PPP

When I was with the railways we were not allowed to wear light green,yellow or red, lots of contractors used to say " thats ********"..what they didnt understand was that these colours are mistaken by train drivers for signal colours, and if you have ever had a train coming at you doing 100km/h you very quickly work out just why those rules are in place.

 

[Cube]

My apprenticeship was 7 years. Three nights a week I had to go to 'night school' for 2 hours AFTER work for what I can remember every year for most of it. That was over 20 years ago now. I laughed at the old man when he told me his apprenticeship was 8~9 years when I started mine. Cheez, 4 years now and your in with a grin. How many out of a apprenticeship start their own sucessful business these days? Must be very low due to the fact most tradies simply don't know enough to be a good tradie. Said elsewhere here, 10 years in and you start to feel really confident and work with pride and passion.

I oversaw many new apprentices and by god the following is true;
First year they think they know it all.
Second year they start to click onto they know ****.
Third year they are workshop disasters and are quite truely dangerious around machinery.
Fourth year they just can't wait to finish to piss off and do something else.

I was year 1 and 2 as above however I really loved my trade back then and third and fourth year never really happened to me as I was a 'head down ass up' kinda young fellow. Thank christ because I would not be where Iam today without that slight change in mindset back then.

I was once told it takes 4yrs for an apprenticeship, but you truly do not become a proficiant tradesman untill 10yrs....

I tend to think there is a lot of truth in that.

A mate of mine used to ask the queastion " who is the most dangerous person in a workshop" his answer was " the 2nd/3rd year apprentice. He has just enough knowledge to use every peice of equipment at its most dangerous...."