Out With The Herms And In With The Rims

[kcurnow]

Hi jj,

i realise i'm digging up an old thread but have you sorted out the multi-step protein formation on your RIMS element. Has it caused you any further problems on any brews?

cheers

Karl

Weyermann Bohemian Pilsener vs. Joe White traditional ale looks very similar in terms of protein content, although slightly (almost marginally) less modified.

ref:View attachment 34307

This leads me to believe that the difference in scorching with the past 2 batches was more process based rather than malt based.

jj.

 

[Bribie G]

I'm a BIAB brewer using an urn, but my experience may be relevant to this thread.

A couple of weeks ago I did my first protein rest with 100% Wey Premium Pilsener and doughed in for a 20 min rest at 52
I've never seen anything like it in my 4 years of brewing. The mixture looked like milk.



AHA, thought I, normally doughing in for 62 - 67 any milky stuff like that is probably starch in suspension and would be rapidly converted at those temperatures, which is why I've never seen it before.
So I rested it and ramped up to 62 for first sacch rest. For those who came in late I ramp using direct heat and the bag sits on a curved rack well clear of the element, and I pump up and down with a paint stirrer.

The urn cut out half way through
I took it up to 62 using my immersion heater, did the sacch rest for 40 mins, gave everything a good stir up and the urn was working again. Took it up to dex rest then mashout.

During the boil the urn cut out again so I completed the boil just on the immersion heater.

Long story short, the urn element was just about stuffed, covered with a layer of black slag that it took me a couple of hours with steel wool to make any impression on. It's still not 100% looking but does its job.
However that's the last time I'll do a protein rest then direct heat. If I do a PR then it will be in a thick mash and dilute with hot liquor to bring to sacch rest.

Wort ended up rather nasty and scorched in flavour and I ended up tossing it. I'd venture a guess that - as the element is in direct contact with the wort - scorching and element problems in RIMS might be more to do with starches during a stepped mash and not proteins?

 

[QldKev]

Hi jj,

i realise i'm digging up an old thread but have you sorted out the multi-step protein formation on your RIMS element. Has it caused you any further problems on any brews?

cheers

Karl

I though I would throw my input here. I've run 5 brews on my new system that has internal RIMS. I had issues with crap on the element, luckily not as bad as above. What I found has helped mine is increasing the crush to 1.0mm, and allowing it to recic for a few minutes before switching on the controller to help wash off any shit sitting on the element. I've now added a HERMS to the system (to help with ramp times due to size of the system) so now I plan on initially only using the HERMS to hold the temp, and switching on the RIMS to help when it comes time to ramp up temps.

QldKev


edit: After reading BribieG's post it makes a bit more scense. The other day I did a brew with Wey Pils (that I recorded for the videos). As BribieG reported it too was milky.
I may do some more testing with prot rests and see if it would be worth using the HERMS to lift to sac temps before turning on the RIMS to prevent scorching.

I wonder if other RIMS users have issues with protein rests.

 

[raven19]

Another RIMS brewer here - I certainly cop plenty of scum/floury buildup on my element each brew - but I tend to switch the RIMS early before the recirc is running clear.

Its not an issue for me as I clean the RIMS tube after each brew anyway.

I have found similar scum buildup on the element even with a recirc prior to switching the element on.

No scorching issues here as long as its cleaned between brews.

 

[kcurnow]

Another RIMS brewer here - I certainly cop plenty of scum/floury buildup on my element each brew - but I tend to switch the RIMS early before the recirc is running clear.

Its not an issue for me as I clean the RIMS tube after each brew anyway.

I have found similar scum buildup on the element even with a recirc prior to switching the element on.

No scorching issues here as long as its cleaned between brews.

Thanks Raven,

I currently have a pretty basic AG setup for single step mashing with an immersion element for mashout and am now looking at upgrading to a setup to allow me to easily do multi step brews and am leaning towards the RIMS style rather than HERMS.

Cheers

karl

 

[QldKev]

Another RIMS brewer here - I certainly cop plenty of scum/floury buildup on my element each brew - but I tend to switch the RIMS early before the recirc is running clear.

Its not an issue for me as I clean the RIMS tube after each brew anyway.

I have found similar scum buildup on the element even with a recirc prior to switching the element on.

No scorching issues here as long as its cleaned between brews.

do you ever do prot rests?

 

[jjeffrey]

do you ever do prot rests?

I've found that most my scorching comes when i do protein rests, coz you need to get the temp from 50 to 60-65, and that means the heating element is pretty much on flat out for long periods of time.

What I do now is avoid under modified malts like the plague- then no need for protein rests.

jj.

 

[matho]

I have just completed a multi step boh pils with 100% wey boh pils malt
I doughed in at 38deg, ramped to 52 and rested for 5 min and then ramped to 64 rested for 30min, ramped to 68 and rested for 30min and finally ramped to 72 and rested for 10. After draining the kettle I had a larger than normal build up on the element





the element I'm using is 35w/ inch² if it was higher then I think I would definitely have had scorching, thought I would share

cheers steve

 

[MastersBrewery]

from what I've read here and elsewhere when using direct heating the Ultra low watt density elements like what steve is using is the only way to go.

 

[pk.sax]

from what I've read here and elsewhere when using direct heating the Ultra low watt density elements like what steve is using is the only way to go.

If the mt is mettalic, you could direct fire it with gas or a hot plate and create a beautiful low density heating surface.
Also doubles up as a permanently easy to clean and maintain vessel.
Heck, if you use a fb and recirc then your heat would never be on those grain bits at all!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

My rims has an element scavenged from a woolies kettle, anything BUT low density

I do a protien rest every time i brew and I dont get this problem - unless I fail to allow the wort to recirculate for a while before i turn on the element. Clear the wort up before adding any heat... problem largely dissapears. The "protien" part of starting with a lower temp rest is IMO irrelevant, its just (as jjeffery said) because if you start at a lower temp, the element is on for longer in dirty wort

In Biab, I suspect that its probably also an issue because unlike most other brewery types, the same element is being used in the mash and for the boil, with no opportunity to clean it in between. So anything that builds up during the mash.... you then have to shove a bunch of heat through during the boil as well as what would normally build up during the boil anyway.

It seems to me that I've only heard about this issue being much of a problem for guys with the flat concealed element. Are people with "tube" type elements having much of a problem?

 

[matho]

So the next brew I do I'll use exactly the same malt and not do the protein rest but mash in at 64 deg and see if I get the same amount of muck on the element, then it will satisfy my mind whether or not a protein rest increases the chance of scorching.

cheers steve

 

[Bribie G]

I'd agree with TB about elements cutting out / burning in the typical BIAB process. When doing stepped mashes starting low I've actually taken to ramping up using an extra immersion heater, not so much for the speed - which is a bonus of course - but to give the built in element a bit of a help along. A bit of extra standing around stirring, but really no more than around 10 to 15 mins a typical brew.

 

[Phoney]

I'd agree with TB about elements cutting out / burning in the typical BIAB process. When doing stepped mashes starting low I've actually taken to ramping up using an extra immersion heater, not so much for the speed - which is a bonus of course - but to give the built in element a bit of a help along. A bit of extra standing around stirring, but really no more than around 10 to 15 mins a typical brew.

Easier still, is mash in with only half of your strike volume and separate the rest into pots & saucepans. Then boil them up on the stove and add them in as you need to ramp up for each step.

I too have found the wort to be super milky when doing 50 - 55C protein rests. Never had an issue with my birko element heating it up though.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Your wort is milky at the low rests because you are below the gelatinization temperature of starch... nothing (mostly nothing anyway) to do with protien.

Starch gelatinises, dissolves, milkyness goes away

Element gets hot, causes proteins to denature at its surface, some gunk builds up... in a dirty wort full of undissolved starches, which become trapped in with the protein muck on the element surface, turning a minor problem into a major one - sometimes.

Same thing happens in a rims, a direct fired mash tun, or a BIAB rig with an over the side element, but isn't as big an issue because either those elements aren't then being used for the boil too, or because if the system is well designed, the velocity of the recirculating wort at the element, the stirring of the direct fired tun, the movement of the over the side element itself, all provide a portion of "scrubbing" at the element surface which reduces any build up. BIAB isolates the element to a certain extent from physical factors that might help.

I cant think of a solution to the problem for those with elements that are having issues - extra hard stirring/pumping and paying especial attention to the area near the element maybe? -but thats about it. Perhaps a scrubby on a stick to give the element a bit of a clean in between mash and boil... PITA though.

I've never particularly been a fan of fixed elements for BIAB, the advantages of the urn outweigh this disadvantages for many I expect, but it firms up my opinion that the ideal BIAB rig is a plain pot and an over the side element, with the urn being a (handy and convenient to be sure) slightly limiting "off the rack" compromise.