Help Support Aussie Homebrewer by donating:

  1. We have implemented the ability to gift someone a Supporting Membership now! When you access the Upgrade page there is now a 'Gift' button. Once you click that you can enter a username to gift an account Upgrade to. Great way to help support this forum plus give some kudos to anyone who has helped you.
    Dismiss Notice

Optimal StarSan content in beer

Discussion in 'General Brewing Techniques' started by Muz, 31/1/20.

 

  1. Muz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    14/11/17
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 31/1/20
    So, how much StarSan can be sucked into a beer from a blow off tube before you can taste it... asking for a friend.
     
    razz likes this.
  2. mofox1

    Wubba lubba dub dub!

    Joined:
    15/3/14
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne - near the 'nongs
    Posted 31/1/20
    Last edited: 31/1/20
  3. JDW81

    I make wort, the yeast make it beer.

    Joined:
    19/1/11
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    825
    Posted 31/1/20
    IMHO no starsan (or other no rinse sanitiser) should ever make it into the beer. As for flavour threshold I don't know, give it a taste and find out. It's not like you're putting lead based pain or cyanide into your beer (apparently it is safe and food grade, but hey we were told thalidomide was safe as well).

    This is my issue with blow off tubes, they work great until they don't.

    Use a fermenter that is the right size for your brew and you won't have any issues.
     
    MHB likes this.
  4. mofox1

    Wubba lubba dub dub!

    Joined:
    15/3/14
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne - near the 'nongs
    Posted 31/1/20
    Pic of container in use.

    IMG_20200131_203224.jpg
     
    Muz likes this.
  5. Muz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    14/11/17
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 31/1/20
    Haha. Good advice. I've had success with blow off tubes for a long time as when a drain the fermenter I disconnect it and replace it with a CO2 filled balloon. This time, taking the gravity sample from the port of my SS Brew Bucket was enough to start a syphon. I didn't even know it had happened until the next day when I realised the blow of demijohn was completely empty.

    It was 19L of Belgian Triple that has been in the fermenter for over four weeks. It must have sucked in 1.5L of water/StarSan solution made up to the concentration recommended on the bottle. Early days but I can't taste it. I can maybe taste the slightest hint of something off... or is that because I'm looking for it? Anyway, gives me increased motivation to build one of these https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/suck-back-from-blowoff.642598/
     
  6. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

    Joined:
    5/9/13
    Messages:
    6,713
    Likes Received:
    3,104
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mulgrave Victoria
    Posted 31/1/20
    When these chemicals (there are a few manufacturers of similar product to StarSan in the US) it is diluted down a lot smaller concentrate for food than it is for brewing. In all the 'how to use' whether it be food or sanitising bottles it states that it has to dry. StarSan used to be used for sanitising bulk milk carriers but in September 2019 it has been removed from use for the milk trucks. I don't know if it was an EPA or FDA decision, but it made me even more determined to keep it away from my beer.

    Collecting co2 I use a receiver to collect any condensate coming from the ferment and there is more that what one would think.
     
  7. Engibeer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    1/9/13
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    87
    Posted 2/2/20
    Oxidation will be your biggest concern. The oxygen in the water that's been sucked into the fermenter in what I assume to be a finished ferment. Let's say your batch is 20L and the oxygen content of the water was 10ppm, let's just round it down to 1L of suck back, you'll have 0.5ppm in your finished beer.

    Are you bottling it or kegging it?

    I'd add some simple sugar ASAP, just a little bit to kick the yeast back into fermentation - they will scrub the oxygen within an hour. Say 10g of dextrose? This is assuming it's finished fermenting.

    http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/

    If it's not finished I wouldn't worry about it.

    Alternatively if you're bottling, bottle it immediately. Same thing will happen with yeast oxygenation in the bottle.
     
  8. Engibeer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    1/9/13
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    87
  9. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

    Joined:
    5/9/13
    Messages:
    6,713
    Likes Received:
    3,104
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mulgrave Victoria
    Posted 2/2/20
    That's a bit of an urban myth about the bottle or keg conditioning will scrub the oxygen from the head space, it won't, the yeast will use a small amount of oxygen which is in the beer but not in the head space.
    The best thing to do is control the temperature of the finished beer, ie keeping it cool.
    https://www.gastrograph.com/blogs/gastronexus/quality-control-in-beer-production-part-3.html
    https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer
     
  10. Engibeer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    1/9/13
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    87
    Posted 2/2/20
    It's going to be in solution if the liquid was sucked in, not in the headspace?
     
  11. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

    Joined:
    5/9/13
    Messages:
    6,713
    Likes Received:
    3,104
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mulgrave Victoria
    Posted 2/2/20
    Once the yeast has gone into anaerobic mode it doesn't need oxygen, Principals of Brewing Science by George Fix explains a lot more of oxidising of beer in the book, hot side and cold side.
     
  12. 41pintsofbeer

    AHB Sponsor AHB Sponsor

    Joined:
    25/1/20
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Business Owner
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    Home Page:
    Posted 2/2/20
    Hey,
    Really interesting question, I phoned Kegland for you. If you have the StarSan from Kegland or one with this compostion (When correctly diluted this solution will add 300ppm of dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid and 780ppm of phosphoric acid.) and mixed it to the directions on the bottle then it will still be safe to drink but might taste terrible. :)

    Hope this was helpful.
     
    Muz likes this.
  13. wozzie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    26/9/17
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 3/2/20
    Ive seen you post this a number of times but can't recall what you now use in place of the "cosmos" sans, is it iodiphor?
     
  14. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

    Joined:
    5/9/13
    Messages:
    6,713
    Likes Received:
    3,104
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mulgrave Victoria
    Posted 3/2/20
    Proxitane.
     
    wozzie likes this.
  15. 41pintsofbeer

    AHB Sponsor AHB Sponsor

    Joined:
    25/1/20
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Business Owner
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    Home Page:
    Posted 3/2/20
    Does it foam the same as StarSan?
     
  16. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

    Joined:
    5/9/13
    Messages:
    6,713
    Likes Received:
    3,104
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mulgrave Victoria
    Posted 3/2/20
    It will if I add Dodecylbenzene which is the chemical I am trying to avoid. Another plus with proxitane, it doesn't need to dry.
     
    wozzie and 41pintsofbeer like this.
  17. wozzie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    26/9/17
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 3/2/20
    Thanks mate!
     
  18. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

    Joined:
    7/1/18
    Messages:
    1,315
    Likes Received:
    845
    Occupation:
    KegLand Distribution
    Location:
    Australia
    Home Page:
    Posted 3/2/20
    Peroxitane is a very effective product for sanitation but it's extremely dangerous and generally not supplied for domestic use where contact with skin is likely to occur. Great for CIP systems where contact with your skin is less likely or high level of OH&S procedures have been implemented.

    The other issue is that it decomposes over time. So if you are the type of person who wants to purchase a sanitiser that sits on the shelf of your garage for over a year I woul dnot recommend it. Every time you open the lid even small particulates that fall into the bottle will accelerate the decomposition. If the temperature exceeds 25C then it will also have accelerated decomposition. If it's exposed to sunlight it will also decompose. Once it's decomposed it's no longer effective.

    I should also say that acid based sanitisers such as stellarsan improve your stainless properties by removal of oxides of various metals.

    So if you want to experiment with peroxitane please be aware of it's unstable nature and ideally use up the whole bottle in a short period of time. Also be extremely careful to avoid contact with skin, eyes etc.
     
  19. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

    Joined:
    5/9/13
    Messages:
    6,713
    Likes Received:
    3,104
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mulgrave Victoria
    Posted 3/2/20
    Longest I have kept it is 3 years, it is light and temperature sensitive but kept in the fridge it is fine, yes it stings if it gets in a cut and it is probably just as dangerous if it gets in the eyes as any other sanitising acid. It is already diluted when I get it, it doesn't smell and the recommended dose is 10 ml per litre.
     
  20. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

    Joined:
    7/1/18
    Messages:
    1,315
    Likes Received:
    845
    Occupation:
    KegLand Distribution
    Location:
    Australia
    Home Page:
    Posted 4/2/20
    Yes the recommended dose is 10ml per litre when the bottle is fresh and new but how do you measure how much it's decomposed over 3 years? If it's sat in a hot garage over summer how can you determine how much you should increase the concentration? This is the difficult part and it would be important to solve this problem for customers that do not use the whole container in a short period of time. Commercially most breweries would probably go through a container of this stuff in a few months. But for domestic customers we have to find a solution to this problem.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

Group Builder