Optimal StarSan content in beer

[Muz]

So, how much StarSan can be sucked into a beer from a blow off tube before you can taste it... asking for a friend.

 

[mofox1]

Lol.

Buy these now: https://www.kmart.com.au/product/10l-collapsible-water-container/1551814

Either fill from CO2 bottle before cold crash, or put on the last few days of ferment (check often it doesn't get too full). Fits on my silicone blowoff tube, I'm sure you'll find a way that works.

 

[JDW81]

IMHO no starsan (or other no rinse sanitiser) should ever make it into the beer. As for flavour threshold I don't know, give it a taste and find out. It's not like you're putting lead based pain or cyanide into your beer (apparently it is safe and food grade, but hey we were told thalidomide was safe as well).

This is my issue with blow off tubes, they work great until they don't.

Use a fermenter that is the right size for your brew and you won't have any issues.

 

[mofox1]

Pic of container in use.

 

[Muz]

Haha. Good advice. I've had success with blow off tubes for a long time as when a drain the fermenter I disconnect it and replace it with a CO2 filled balloon. This time, taking the gravity sample from the port of my SS Brew Bucket was enough to start a syphon. I didn't even know it had happened until the next day when I realised the blow of demijohn was completely empty.

It was 19L of Belgian Triple that has been in the fermenter for over four weeks. It must have sucked in 1.5L of water/StarSan solution made up to the concentration recommended on the bottle. Early days but I can't taste it. I can maybe taste the slightest hint of something off... or is that because I'm looking for it? Anyway, gives me increased motivation to build one of these https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/suck-back-from-blowoff.642598/

 

[wide eyed and legless]

When these chemicals (there are a few manufacturers of similar product to StarSan in the US) it is diluted down a lot smaller concentrate for food than it is for brewing. In all the 'how to use' whether it be food or sanitising bottles it states that it has to dry. StarSan used to be used for sanitising bulk milk carriers but in September 2019 it has been removed from use for the milk trucks. I don't know if it was an EPA or FDA decision, but it made me even more determined to keep it away from my beer.

Collecting co2 I use a receiver to collect any condensate coming from the ferment and there is more that what one would think.

 

[Engibeer]

Haha. Good advice. I've had success with blow off tubes for a long time as when a drain the fermenter I disconnect it and replace it with a CO2 filled balloon. This time, taking the gravity sample from the port of my SS Brew Bucket was enough to start a syphon. I didn't even know it had happened until the next day when I realised the blow of demijohn was completely empty.

It was 19L of Belgian Triple that has been in the fermenter for over four weeks. It must have sucked in 1.5L of water/StarSan solution made up to the concentration recommended on the bottle. Early days but I can't taste it. I can maybe taste the slightest hint of something off... or is that because I'm looking for it? Anyway, gives me increased motivation to build one of these https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/suck-back-from-blowoff.642598/

Oxidation will be your biggest concern. The oxygen in the water that's been sucked into the fermenter in what I assume to be a finished ferment. Let's say your batch is 20L and the oxygen content of the water was 10ppm, let's just round it down to 1L of suck back, you'll have 0.5ppm in your finished beer.

Are you bottling it or kegging it?

I'd add some simple sugar ASAP, just a little bit to kick the yeast back into fermentation - they will scrub the oxygen within an hour. Say 10g of dextrose? This is assuming it's finished fermenting.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/

If it's not finished I wouldn't worry about it.

Alternatively if you're bottling, bottle it immediately. Same thing will happen with yeast oxygenation in the bottle.

 

[Engibeer]

This article is way better

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/deoxygenation-revisited/

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I'd add some simple sugar ASAP, just a little bit to kick the yeast back into fermentation - they will scrub the oxygen within an hour. Say 10g of dextrose? This is assuming it's finished fermenting.

Alternatively if you're bottling, bottle it immediately. Same thing will happen with yeast oxygenation in the bottle.

That's a bit of an urban myth about the bottle or keg conditioning will scrub the oxygen from the head space, it won't, the yeast will use a small amount of oxygen which is in the beer but not in the head space.
The best thing to do is control the temperature of the finished beer, ie keeping it cool.
https://www.gastrograph.com/blogs/gastronexus/quality-control-in-beer-production-part-3.html
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

 

[Engibeer]

That's a bit of an urban myth about the bottle or keg conditioning will scrub the oxygen from the head space, it won't, the yeast will use a small amount of oxygen which is in the beer but not in the head space.
The best thing to do is control the temperature of the finished beer, ie keeping it cool.
https://www.gastrograph.com/blogs/gastronexus/quality-control-in-beer-production-part-3.html
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

It's going to be in solution if the liquid was sucked in, not in the headspace?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

It's going to be in solution if the liquid was sucked in, not in the headspace?

Once the yeast has gone into anaerobic mode it doesn't need oxygen, Principals of Brewing Science by George Fix explains a lot more of oxidising of beer in the book, hot side and cold side.

 

[41pintsofbeer]

Hey,
Really interesting question, I phoned Kegland for you. If you have the StarSan from Kegland or one with this compostion (When correctly diluted this solution will add 300ppm of dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid and 780ppm of phosphoric acid.) and mixed it to the directions on the bottle then it will still be safe to drink but might taste terrible.

Hope this was helpful.

 

[wozzie]

When these chemicals (there are a few manufacturers of similar product to StarSan in the US) it is diluted down a lot smaller concentrate for food than it is for brewing. In all the 'how to use' whether it be food or sanitising bottles it states that it has to dry. StarSan used to be used for sanitising bulk milk carriers but in September 2019 it has been removed from use for the milk trucks. I don't know if it was an EPA or FDA decision, but it made me even more determined to keep it away from my beer.

Collecting co2 I use a receiver to collect any condensate coming from the ferment and there is more that what one would think.

Ive seen you post this a number of times but can't recall what you now use in place of the "cosmos" sans, is it iodiphor?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Ive seen you post this a number of times but can't recall what you now use in place of the "cosmos" sans, is it iodiphor?

Proxitane.

 

[41pintsofbeer]

Does it foam the same as StarSan?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Does it foam the same as StarSan?

It will if I add Dodecylbenzene which is the chemical I am trying to avoid. Another plus with proxitane, it doesn't need to dry.

 

[wozzie]

Proxitane.

Thanks mate!

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Peroxitane is a very effective product for sanitation but it's extremely dangerous and generally not supplied for domestic use where contact with skin is likely to occur. Great for CIP systems where contact with your skin is less likely or high level of OH&S procedures have been implemented.

The other issue is that it decomposes over time. So if you are the type of person who wants to purchase a sanitiser that sits on the shelf of your garage for over a year I woul dnot recommend it. Every time you open the lid even small particulates that fall into the bottle will accelerate the decomposition. If the temperature exceeds 25C then it will also have accelerated decomposition. If it's exposed to sunlight it will also decompose. Once it's decomposed it's no longer effective.

I should also say that acid based sanitisers such as stellarsan improve your stainless properties by removal of oxides of various metals.

So if you want to experiment with peroxitane please be aware of it's unstable nature and ideally use up the whole bottle in a short period of time. Also be extremely careful to avoid contact with skin, eyes etc.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Peroxitane is a very effective product for sanitation but it's extremely dangerous and generally not supplied for domestic use where contact with skin is likely to occur. Great for CIP systems where contact with your skin is less likely or high level of OH&S procedures have been implemented.

The other issue is that it decomposes over time. So if you are the type of person who wants to purchase a sanitiser that sits on the shelf of your garage for over a year I woul dnot recommend it. Every time you open the lid even small particulates that fall into the bottle will accelerate the decomposition. If the temperature exceeds 25C then it will also have accelerated decomposition. If it's exposed to sunlight it will also decompose. Once it's decomposed it's no longer effective.

I should also say that acid based sanitisers such as stellarsan improve your stainless properties by removal of oxides of various metals.

So if you want to experiment with peroxitane please be aware of it's unstable nature and ideally use up the whole bottle in a short period of time. Also be extremely careful to avoid contact with skin, eyes etc.

Longest I have kept it is 3 years, it is light and temperature sensitive but kept in the fridge it is fine, yes it stings if it gets in a cut and it is probably just as dangerous if it gets in the eyes as any other sanitising acid. It is already diluted when I get it, it doesn't smell and the recommended dose is 10 ml per litre.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Longest I have kept it is 3 years, it is light and temperature sensitive but kept in the fridge it is fine, yes it stings if it gets in a cut and it is probably just as dangerous if it gets in the eyes as any other sanitising acid. It is already diluted when I get it, it doesn't smell and the recommended dose is 10 ml per litre.

Yes the recommended dose is 10ml per litre when the bottle is fresh and new but how do you measure how much it's decomposed over 3 years? If it's sat in a hot garage over summer how can you determine how much you should increase the concentration? This is the difficult part and it would be important to solve this problem for customers that do not use the whole container in a short period of time. Commercially most breweries would probably go through a container of this stuff in a few months. But for domestic customers we have to find a solution to this problem.