Olive Oil In Starter

[hazard]

I've been reading about olive oil aeration, on this this forum and I've read the thesis (a good read, needs to be read a couple of times for it all to sink in). I am keen to try this technique as the results achieved in the thesis are good.

So I am planning to make an irish red ale this weekend. I made a stout before Christmas, and made a 1.5L starter from a Wyeast 1084 smack pack. I used 1L in the stout, and kept 0.5L for later on. I got out the remaining starter on Sunday, decanted the wort on top of the yeast, and added some fresh malt. Not much was happening by last night so i thinks to myself - if olive oil works in a full fermentation, why wouldn't it work in a starter?

I made another 0.5L (50g DME) of malt, added it to starter and also added a drop of olive oil. gave it a gentle shake and put it in the cupboard. This morning - wow! The starter is fermenting well! Half an inch of foam on top, and a healthy bit of yeast on the bottom of the bottle. This is showing promising results.

I now aim to let the starter ferment out, will chill and decant before pitching and add a drop or two or oil as well. According to the thesis, they got best results from 1mg for 25 billion yeast cells (thats 4 mg for a smack pack BTW). I'm not sure how much 4mg of olive oil is, but I've got 2 days to work it out!!

I know Chappo has tried oilive oil aeration, are there any other results to report?

 

[Sammus]

That sounds like an awful lot. I've also read a bunch of olive oil for this purpose, and it seemed the general consensus was that in homebrew scales, even touching the head of a needle to some oil and washing it off in a full fermenter is several magnitudes more than what is required/recommended.

 

[chappo1970]

Good on ya Hazard,
Having read and done the olive oil I have got to say it works and works well. The LCBA I experimented on has turned out fantastic and any faults are from malt and hops not from yeast IMO. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the head retention in fact last nights bottle was lacing the glass beautifully.

I did 2 starters this weekend for my Aussie lager both fired off from Olive Oil with an addition of 1mls. Both took off incrediably well. I had planned to do one as normal and the other with olive oil. But I just couldn't help myself so I dosed both.

I aerated the wort with oxygen approximately 15ppm so I didn't go the whole 9 yards but I have to say it works and warrants more experimentation and testing. I am doing an Irish Red as well this weekend and I am going to try Olive Oil on both the starter and the wort no oxygenation.

Hazard PM me your address and I am happy to send you said results for your own critique and bias of the said results.

 

[hazard]

That sounds like an awful lot. I've also read a bunch of olive oil for this purpose, and it seemed the general consensus was that in homebrew scales, even touching the head of a needle to some oil and washing it off in a full fermenter is several magnitudes more than what is required/recommended.

Sammus, yes, i have also read some of the posts that recommend vanishingly small amounts of oil. However, while i listen to these people, I will only accept quantitative facts - and I refer again to the Hull thesis:
Quote" In the 360 HL batch the olive oil was added to the yeast at a rate of 1 mg/ 67 billion yeast cells pitched (15 mg olive oil per litre of yeast)" unquote.
Now I saw a comment from a reader who divided 360 hL by 15 mg to determine the volume of yeast but this calculation is not right, and would serioulsy underquote the requirement. Another quote from Hull thesis follows:
"In the 2,100hL trials the concentration was increased again to 1mg per 25 billion cells" Unquote
Now a smack pack is 100 billion cells - so this equates to 4 mg for a smack pack. If you put smack pack on a stir plate and double the number of cells - then you would need 8 mg!!

Note that in the last trial (1 mg oil per 25 billion cells) ester production was increased AND DMS/acetaldehyde/ higher alcohols were decreased AND oxidation was significantly decreased. So a win for the oil!!

I have read the thesis a few times, and am keen to try this approach. If this amount seems to large, I am happy to discuss but what is the quantitative evidence to support another figure? No anecdotes!!

hazard

 

[haysie]

Note that in the last trial (1 mg oil per 25 billion cells) ester production was increased AND DMS/acetaldehyde/ higher alcohols were decreased AND oxidation was significantly decreased. So a win for the oil!!


hazard

Thats a hell of a lot of great stuff the olive oil does. What`s your experience using olive oil in beer? that stuff appears to be text written 360hl eg. not worth our while i would suggest. Oxidation, acetaldehyde, fusels, esters ARE NOT going to be significantly decreased by olive oil in a 50 ltr batch. I guess the proof would be double batch i.e 1 lager full of butterscotch, the other only, no.

 

[chappo1970]

Did you bother reading the thesis Haysie before shooting from the hip?

 

[haysie]

Did you bother reading the thesis Haysie before shooting from the hip?

Yes i have read it, if you really need oil too make good starters, beer, you must be far off producing a decent swill. The claim was fixes this and that.... bollucks. more copywriting than experience.

 

[Sammus]

Sounds good hazard, haven't read the thesis myself, it certainly does sound like people have misinterpreted what it said. Something I definitely want to give a crack.

 

[chappo1970]

Yes it is very obvious to me that you have read and understood the paper Haysie with comments like that.

 

[chappo1970]

Said Olive oil beer. Not the best photo but the head retention is great and no noticable taste defects. I'm happy with it.

 

[hazard]

Yes i have read it, if you really need oil too make good starters, beer, you must be far off producing a decent swill. The claim was fixes this and that.... bollucks. more copywriting than experience.

ummm - are you sure you read it? The thesis did not claim to make a bad beer good. The aim of the experiment was simply to see if beer could be brewed without aeration, as aeration longer term leads to oxidation of the beer (i always wondered why beer has a use by date on the bottle. Now I know why).

The conclusion was that by using olive oil, it was possible to brew beer without oxidation and without drop off in quality. Quantitative measures showed a few other things about esters and DMS, but also stated that changes were in normal tolerance levels. You don't have to believe it, I don't believe it blindly but am prepared to give it ago. What is problem with trying something new?

hazard

 

[chappo1970]

Well I am going to forge ahead with this. I will be taking more detailed notes and more accurate measurements as well as photo's. I will use this thread to post my results. Cheers Hazard for starting this thread.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Well I am going to forge ahead with this. I will be taking more detailed notes and more accurate measurements as well as photo's. I will use this thread to post my results. Cheers Hazard for starting this thread.

Be very careful doing your measurements and recorded results, You probably don't have the gear to generate an accurate objective result.Im not saying OO doesnt have merit I just dont think you can do it justice.
GB

 

[chappo1970]

Agree whole heartedly GB

I'm working on geting some more accurate equipment from a research lab I'm currently renovating but actually quantify results in a home environment is not ideal to say the least.

 

[Whistlingjack]

What's the point, again?

Why not just stick to tried and proven traditional methods of aeration.

Sure, experimentation is a good thing, but in our world of homebrewing, there are so many other variables to take in to account when attempting to replicate the method.

Good luck...

WJ

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Agree whole heartedly GB

I'm working on geting some more accurate equipment from a research lab I'm currently renovating but actually quantify results in a home environment is not idea to say the least.

Good to see you giving it a go.I was very interested when originally I heard about this Oil stuff but could not find any real objective data,one seemed to contradict the other, as science quite often does.
GB

 

[Sammus]

a drop of oil into the fermenter is much easier than shaking 25L+ of liquid, which doesnt give anywhere near the recommended amount of aeration, or dissolved oxygen. And olive oil is also a lot cheaper than an O2 cylinder and oxygenation system. And then theres the storage issues hazard has mentioned.

 

[big d]

Olive oil hey?
Different slant on the ol neck oil jibe.
Look forward to the results.

Cheers
Big D

 

[chappo1970]

Good to see you giving it a go.I was very interested when originally I heard about this Oil stuff but could not find any real objective data,one seemed to contradict the other, as science quite often does.
GB

Or brewing for that matter. Cheers for the encouragement GB.

Is't home brewing about tinkering? I'm not a commercial brewer I brew for myself so if I stuff a few brews what harm have I done except to myself? I'm not asking you to join in but rather just posting my findings it's up to you if you find merit to give it a go yourself. Quite simply if this exercise fails I will no doubt fold back to the tried and tested but as yet nothing so far has persuaded or deterred me from using Olive Oil as an alternative to traditional spanking your wort like a british nanny.

 

[Whistlingjack]

a drop of oil into the fermenter is much easier than shaking 25L+ of liquid, which doesnt give anywhere near the recommended amount of aeration, or dissolved oxygen. And olive oil is also a lot cheaper than an O2 cylinder and oxygenation system. And then theres the storage issues hazard has mentioned.

A fish tank aerator with a viral filter seems pretty basic equipment. Room air has sufficient oxygen content. Also, a venturi system (again with the filter) is quite easy to construct.

No need to use pure oxygen, studies have shown this has no advantage.

Oil up, if you wish, but be sure you have done the mathematics.

WJ