Old Speckled Hen-target Water Profile

[dalpets]

Hi everyone,

I've just started trying to unravel how Promash (v 1.8.a) works. In particular its asking me what target water profile I want to use for OSH. This seems to be a pretty onerous task for everything I brew from now on. Can someone give me some insights into determing TW profiles for different brews.

Thanks

 

[manticle]

I'm far from expert on water chem but my understanding is:

Use the water profile you have. eg - if you use melbourne water, add melbourne water valuse - of particular interest are calcium, sulphate and magnesium levels and to a lesser degree sodium. Water hardness is also a major factor.

Then add desired grains/sugars etc, work out likely pH (of the mash, not the water) then adjust so that the pH is in balance (5.2-5.4) and to get the chloride/sulphate ratio on the side you want - sulphate pushing hops and chloride pushing malt.

To summarise - it is the total mash pH and profile that is important and what should be tweaked, rather than the water.

 

[dalpets]

I just pulled this thread from another brewing forum. It seems the English ale target profile my be the way to go. What do you think?

Burton Pale Ale -- A toned-down, "idealized" profile. Enough sulphate to bring out the hops without overdoing it. Low alkalinity helps ensure proper mash pH. Model: Moshers 'Ideal Pale Ale". Ca=111, SO4=337, Mg=18, Na=35, Cl=32, CO3=38, Hardness=352, Alkalinity=31.

English Ale -- More or less a London water profile. Model: A. J. deLange's "Ale" from HBD1965. Ca=52, SO4=65, Mg=10, Na=6.2, Cl=9.6, CO3=63, Hardness=173, Alkalinity=106.

Light Lager -- Very small amounts of ions; just enough to acidify the mash. Model: Mosher's "Ideal Pale Lager". Ca=21, SO4=21, Mg=5.2, Na=18, Cl=16, CO3=51, Hardness=74, Alkalinity=69.

Medium Lager -- Malty, amber lagers like Oktoberfest. Loosely based on Papazian's Munich. Ca=74, SO4=21, Mg=5.2, Na=10, Cl=16, CO3=111, Hardness=207, Alkalinity=185.

Dark Lagers -- Bocks, for example. Model: Mosher's "Ideal Mild Ale / Dark Lager". Ca=73, SO4=125, Mg=13, Na=52, Cl=80, CO3=63, Hardness=236, Alkalinity=106.

 

[dalpets]

I'm far from expert on water chem but my understanding is:

Use the water profile you have. eg - if you use melbourne water, add melbourne water valuse - of particular interest are calcium, sulphate and magnesium levels and to a lesser degree sodium. Water hardness is also a major factor.

Then add desired grains/sugars etc, work out likely pH (of the mash, not the water) then adjust so that the pH is in balance (5.2-5.4) and to get the chloride/sulphate ratio on the side you want - sulphate pushing hops and chloride pushing malt.

To summarise - it is the total mash pH and profile that is important and what should be tweaked, rather than the water.

Your comments are very interesting coming from an experienced brewer and it seems your approach is very practical and easier than the Promash water profiling. Having said that it seems to negate what Promash stands for, so it leaves me in a bit of a quandry as to whether I should bother with Promash at all. I think what you are saying is that the software over complicates the issue at hand and as such is unecessary.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers
dalpets

 

[manticle]

There are different approaches. My understanding of the current thinking is that basing your brewing on specific water profiles is useless as while big breweries may once have brewed using what was at hand, most will now tailor their water with salts or acids or acidulated malts.

Even breweries who adhere to certain laws (like barvarian purity law) will use things ike acidulated malt or acid rests to get their mash pH where they want them. Burton water is full of things you generally don't want in your beer so adding stuff to make it like burton water seems counter intuitive.


I can't comment on promash as I've never used it and I'm certainly not the go to guy on water chemistry. I'm just coming to grips with it myself but almost everything I read suggests forget the water in and of itself, and tailor the mash to the right pH and profile you want for the brew you're making.

try ez water calculator for a start - http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

 

[drsmurto]

Hi Dalpets

You seem to be going all out to complicate your 1st AG, are you an engineer?

Adelaide tap water is fine for use in brewing and most of the brewers here use it. Ask those who have been brewing AG in this state for several years and thats what they use.

I started out using tap water but have switched to rainwater this year (after 2 years of using tap water) and adjust the water depending on style. I did this more to start learning how the salts affect the beer once i was happy with how my beer was turning out.

I suggest starting off with tap water. Spend your time getting your system worked out first (water volumes required, losses, evaporation rates) etc before you start down the road of water chemistry.

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[manticle]

I suggest starting off with tap water.

Actually much better advice than mine. Start with what you have and adjust it, if and when you know it's not working for you as you'd like. Don't think you need to make your beer perfect the first time.

I've done loads of AG brews now and adding brewing salts is something I've only started playing with recently. I'm still working it out and I still made beer before I tried. Each one is a learning experience for the next.

 

[dalpets]

Hi Dalpets

You seem to be going all out to complicate your 1st AG, are you an engineer?



Cheers
DrSmurto

No I'm not, mate!, What is complicated or otherwise is in the eyes (or brain) of the beholder. My philosphy is that a problem is only a problem if you think its a problem and that cutting corners is to be going around in circles.

That's who I am, if you can accept that!.

Having said that I'm not the sort of person who wants to o bore you and others with exploring every convolution of a duck's arse. There are limits for sanitiy sake and in the cause of moderation. I'll leave the extremities to the mad scientist.!

So, I want to distance myself from the dump & run approach to brewing, knowing that there is invariably a better way. It has been said that there are thousands of plastic fermenters lying around gathering dust in people's garages in Australia. That, indeed,tells a story.

i don't think one should necessarily have to be an enginner to understand basic water chemistry.

What surprises me is that no one in this thread has spoken out in favour of brewing software. Surely it's not the holy grail or rocket science.
Does itt mean no one is using them or do people shy away from something they believe is too complicated. At the same time I can understand those who would say " I shoudn't have to learn water chemistry to brew.

Any how this rant is to give some idea of who I am, gtiven the impersonal nature of the internet and in the interests of friendly discourse & understanding..

All I am looking for here is a reasonable mentor on the subject. Here's hoping!

Happy brewing Dr Smurto
& Cheers
dalpets

 

[manticle]

What surprises me is that no one in this thread has spoken out in favour of brewing software. Surely it's not the holy grail or rocket science.
Does itt mean no one is using them or do people shy away from something they believe is too complicated. At the same time I can understand those who would say " I shoudn't have to learn water chemistry to brew.

If you want to read up about water chemistry, you'll find plenty of references. Start with palmer. You'll find that it supports my initial suggestion that mash pH is more important than water pH.

I think what the Doc is suggesting is not 'dump and run' but work out each step so that when things go wrong or right, you can fix/eliminate more easily. It's quite a scientific approach rather than a 'stick it in the too hard basket' approach.

By all means get involved in understanding water chemistry - plenty of informatioon around. Nothing wrong with understanding, through experience, the difference it actually makes though. If you change everything about your process at once and nothing goes right, how will you know which step to fix?

 

[bum]

All I am looking for here is a reasonable mentor on the subject.

Funny thing is you've probably found one but are unwilling to listen due to your beginning position being intractable. DrS's advice is sound and reasonable.

 

[dalpets]

Funny thing is you've probably found one but are unwilling to listen due to your beginning position being intractable. DrS's advice is sound and reasonable.

Intractable! Never!. Unfortunately You jump to a hasty short hand Internet opinion of me. You just don't know me. Likewise I don't really know you or Dr Smurto. So, a cache of opinions is always desirable in technical areas such as this . As you well know you don't always hang your hat on one opinion, particularly on the Internet.

Having said that AHB is a great forum, with a diversity of views but the last thing I want to get into is ego infighting based on the number of barrels. My aim is for friendly relationships with all on these forums..

This week has reinforced my view, with the loss of a dear friend, that so many things fade into insignificance at such times.

Sincerely
dalpets

 

[felten]

Brewing software is the ducks nuts, it's a steep learning curve though and no one can tell you how you have to adapt it to your system over the forums, its really something you just have to keep using until you figure it out.

 

[dalpets]

Brewing software is the ducks nuts, it's a steep learning curve though and no one can tell you how you have to adapt it to your system over the forums, its really something you just have to keep using until you figure it out.

Thanks mate, I value your point of view.

Cheers
dalpets

 

[dalpets]

I think what the Doc is suggesting is not 'dump and run' but work out each step so that when things go wrong or right, you can fix/eliminate more easily. It's quite a scientific approach rather than a 'stick it in the too hard basket' approach.

By all means get involved in understanding water chemistry - plenty of informatioon around. Nothing wrong with understanding, through experience, the difference it actually makes though. If you change everything about your process at once and nothing goes right, how will you know which step to fix?

Thanks Manticle. What you say makes very good sense,
For the record I was not saying that Dr Smurto was advocating "dump & run"-far from it. I was just alluding to one extremity of brewing know how & as a point from which to do better brews. Damn the internet for misunderstandings such as this!

Dr Smurto seems to have respected points of view & knowledge that should be listened to and I acknowledge that.

Cheers
dalpets

 

[np1962]

dalpets,
I use Beersmith and am quite happy with it.
I don't use it to it's fullest capacity but I do brew good beer IMHO.
If I were to give you some advice, which I guess I am about to, it would be to get your process correct with your system over the course of several brews without worrying about too many technical aspects.
Once you are comfortable with your system start looking at what tweaks you can make to make better beer, increase efficiency, bring out the hop or malt flavours of your beer and many other aspects of brewing.
I have only recently looked at adjusting my water. I wanted a profile suited to a lager I was brewing. Used Beersmiths water profiler for the first time and combined mains and rain water 30:70 and brewed a nice beer.
Any better than if I had used straight mains water? Maybe, maybe not.
Would I of bothered with this in my first 25 AG brews? No! I just wanted to brew beer that I and others could drink.
Will I adjust my water in the future? Sometimes, but not for every beer I brew.
All these decisions are personal as is yours to take the time and make the effort to research this for your first AG beer.
I hope it makes your beer better, but how will you know if you've never brewed it without going to the trouble of adjustments?
Have fun doing it your way, maybe you can get along to one of the meet ups in Adelaide sometime and taste some of the great beers being brewed here by some really good brewers.
Cheers
Nige

 

[dalpets]

dalpets,
I use Beersmith and am quite happy with it.
I don't use it to it's fullest capacity but I do brew good beer IMHO.
If I were to give you some advice, which I guess I am about to, it would be to get your process correct with your system over the course of several brews without worrying about too many technical aspects.
Once you are comfortable with your system start looking at what tweaks you can make to make better beer, increase efficiency, bring out the hop or malt flavours of your beer and many other aspects of brewing.
I have only recently looked at adjusting my water. I wanted a profile suited to a lager I was brewing. Used Beersmiths water profiler for the first time and combined mains and rain water 30:70 and brewed a nice beer.
Any better than if I had used straight mains water? Maybe, maybe not.
Would I of bothered with this in my first 25 AG brews? No! I just wanted to brew beer that I and others could drink.
Will I adjust my water in the future? Sometimes, but not for every beer I brew.
All these decisions are personal as is yours to take the time and make the effort to research this for your first AG beer.
I hope it makes your beer better, but how will you know if you've never brewed it without going to the trouble of adjustments?
Have fun doing it your way, maybe you can get along to one of the meet ups in Adelaide sometime and taste some of the great beers being brewed here by some really good brewers.
Cheers
Nige

Nige,

Thanks for your insights & advice which mirrors what other have said on this thread. I will heed this advice & move forward with a more measured approach. The problem is that I am a technocrat at heart & want instantaneous results. I'm not a young bloke so I have limited time to get there, you see . I figure if you were at Cape Canaveral this approach would be mandatory (you don't get a second chance there)- but brewing is not rocket science, is it?.

I must admit that I came up with a start to find that experienced brewers on these forums seem to be using tap water as a basis for their brews. The last time I looked Adelaide had the worst water in the nation! I thought they used a more scientific/technical standard than that. But heck, if you can make good beer with it then why not1

. Probably I'm using a broad brush with the above characterization given what brewers probably do from there.-addition of salts etc. Probably, Dr Smurto was right in his comment of over complication at the point of the 1st AG but less & less a complication with time & experience.

I was considering buying a RO filter but in light of above I think I will leave that in abeyance until I'm on my feet, so to speak,

BTW I would like to attend one of the Adelaide meeet ups

Thanks for your time & cheers
dalpets.

 

[dalpets]

Hi Dalpets

You seem to be going all out to complicate your 1st AG, are you an engineer?

Adelaide tap water is fine for use in brewing and most of the brewers here use it. Ask those who have been brewing AG in this state for several years and thats what they use.

I started out using tap water but have switched to rainwater this year (after 2 years of using tap water) and adjust the water depending on style. I did this more to start learning how the salts affect the beer once i was happy with how my beer was turning out.

I suggest starting off with tap water. Spend your time getting your system worked out first (water volumes required, losses, evaporation rates) etc before you start down the road of water chemistry.

Cheers
DrSmurto

Tap water it is for the time being, At least filtered tap water.

I sorry to hear you don't like engineers, They're debatedly more intelligent than the general population but they have personality quirks just like the rest of us. Don't hold that against them. Did you have a less than favourable experience with them at some time?
I've worked with them & found them OK, certainly not supercilous about their degree qualifications, Their not tradesmen but professionals & naturally that will come across.as a different level of expertise, so I'm not prejudiced against them as a profession.

Cheers
dalpets

 

[bum]

Cool story, dalpets.

 

[goomboogo]

Tap water it is for the time being, At least filtered tap water.

I sorry to hear you don't like engineers, They're debatedly more intelligent than the general population

You are correct. It's very debatable.

 

[dalpets]

You are correct. It's very debatable.

Well; I base that on the fact that only 2% of the population are capable of achieving scores to enter university.
I expect I would not be one of them.

Cheers
dalpets