Alrighty.
First up, I've brewed an attempt at a clone twice and done T-ruckloads of reading on this baby.
First time it turned out like a good dark ale, but not quite a TOP replica.
Recipe was tweaked (yes, i have too many malts to tempt me, begging me to throw them in also) and the 2nd version's (brewed a few months ago) result was definitely closer - definitely some of those malty, dried fruit aromas coming through.
However, it'll probably need and extra few months before it's remotely close enough to tell; and unfortunately the yeast i used turned out to be completely wrong (MJ Dark Ale) - stalling at 60% attenuation, then waking up 2 weeks later and dropping it to maybe 85% attenuation (mumble mumble f@*k&#* yeast M*#@^&RF#@%#R!!) so i'll need to do another batch to test that recipe now anyway.
Of the 35 recipes i'd gleaned from the internet, Wheeler seemed to be the one who had the "best" versions (over a few editions of his British Ale book). He initially started with something more like the OP or post#11, then moved to more like what i'd suggested in post#20. Now i'm under the impression the majority of Wheeler's recipes these days are acquired by rocking up to the respective brewery, finding out what their recipe is, then trying to scale it down to a homebrewing level. I also believe some of the recipes in his earlier editions were from his calculated guesses when he wasn't able to get the breweries' recipes. But over time he's managed to get most of them these days. Whether his earlier versions were from Theakston's and they've changed their recipe, or whether he's guessed those and now has the "official" one, or if he's still guestimating i'm not sure. However, i got the impression on the UK forums/threads he participated in that the version i've used is "authentic". Who knows?!? What i've said is just what i "believe" etc.
The version i based my attempts on is roughly:
23 L
5.5 kg MO
0.3 kg Med crystal
0.2 kg Chocolate
30g Northern Brewer @ 90mins
15g Fuggles @ 90mins
15g EKG @ 10mins
yeast not specified
The exact Wheeler's recipe varies slightly in the quantities but the above is what i was guided by.
FWIW, there's several others i came across that do similar ingredients and ratios, so there seemed to be a little bit of consensus/plagiarism on this version of a clone.
The 1st version i did was:
5.45kg MO
0.45kg Chocolate
0.225 Crystal (50g pale/125g med/50g dark)
0.1g Acidualted
some salts, favouring CaCl a bit
25g Northern Brewer @60mins
14g Fuggles @ 60mins
14g EKG @ 10mins
Fermented with Nottingham
The changes were made based on conversations with Grantw and his attempt at it (and manticle has mentioned before splitting crystal additions like i did to get better depth in darker beers - so i blame him for that :lol: ).
As mentioned this turned out to be a good dark ale, but not what i was after.
Back to the drawing board!
The 2nd attempt was:
25L (@85% efficiency)
5.25kg MO
0.25kg Amber (Simpsons)
0.2kg Chocolate
0.325kg Crystal (150g med/75g dark/100g caraAroma)
0.1kg Acidulated
some salts biased to CaCl
20g each of Fuggles & Horizon (free hops!, otherwise i'd go Challenger) @ 40mins
20g EKG & 15g Fuggles at 20mins
MJ03
Separately reduced 3L to 0.5L during the boil. Cold-steeped crystal + chocolate overnight.
Amber was to get some toastiness and amp up the maltiness (Simpson's Amber is meant to be ~ the UK version of Biscuit). The crystal split was pushed into darker territory to try to get more "dried fruit" aroma & flavour. Otherwise the crystal:chocolate proportion is more similar to what i think is Wheeler's version. The hops additions are based on my addiction to hops elements, but in hindsight i could've been less of an idiot and just pushed the 40mins back to 60-90mins. MJ03 was a terrible choice - i'm still angry about it! I'm sure it's got great applications, but was incorrect for this; though i suppose something might've screwed up with my mash temps also to cause this. Definitely choose a typical UK yeast next time.
So instead of being ~6.4% alcohol, it's now 7.5% alcohol and thinner to boot. Not Happy, Jan!
Re: the Trappist Ale yeast mentioned earlier, i believe it's to try to achieve the fruity esters you get in TOP. Should be achievable with the UK yeasts, but obviously some people believe in a more direct approach!
@Mark/MHB, yeah, agree that MO is a dubious label these days. Hey, it looks cool; like you know all about UK beers if you insist on it in your beers!
h34r: :lol:
Also the ingredients quoted by a brewery definitely may be in any ratio, and may not even be *all* of the ingredients in there. Sneaky bastards!
In terms of flavours/aromas, i'd say that with so much dark stuff, it might be masking the typical elements you'd expect to get from MO. I mean, we're all trying to nail a particular beer that's awesome specifically for the unusual flavours/aromas it has - i.e.: dried fruit & pudding from a bunch of grain and hops. So there's obviously some weird ingredient synergies going on in there.
I actually think it's the bloody yeast that's the trick! - TOP is a particular combo that the yeast really brings together in an amazing way. It is a great example of the synergies that can be achieved with simple ingredients done just right, to produce "non-typical" beer flavours. So to get a dried fruit flavour doesn't mean you throw in dried fruit, but that you combine some caraaroma, etc and yeast and do it in a certain way and it produces this magic!
TBH, i've never used the various brewing sugars, so i can't really comment on them. UK breweries certainly have a history of using sugars, though this obviously doesn't mean they are/were used in TOP.
I hope that slab of text helps!
Aopolgies to the OP - i believe he is an extract brewer, so the AG recipes i've mentioned are of limited value. Hopefully someone can convert it to extract if he's interested in trying one. Or it's a good excuse to turn to AG!!
EDIT:
At a pinch, i'd maybe try something like
1 tin of Amber extract,
1 tin of Dark extract,
some crystal and chocolate malt to steep (e.g.: 150g crystal, 100g chocolate),
and then some Fuggles + Challenger @60-90mins, & EKG @10-20mins.
Best try a liquid UK yeast if you can.
