Old Peculier

[manticle]

Sorry TB. Got back to the hotel and went to bed so the peculier has been posted back to me. Won't get to it for a few days.
I have the opportunity to try it now at beer deluxe but it will be straight from the fridge. My own bottle I can let settle and reach proper drinking temperature. Either weekend or early next week mate.

 

[welly2]

I'm going to have a bash at an OP. TB's recipe looks the business. According to this website: http://www.beer-pages.com/stories/theakston.htm - bitterness to 29 (presumably IBU) and colour to 95 although 95 EBC would be absolutely pitch black, surely? OP isn't that dark although obviously it is dark. I wonder if OP has something like black treacle in it? I'm going to throw in a can and see what occurs.

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks for the thought, mants. Look fwd to your input after giving the tastebuds a workout.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong w the RB and should stick to the Choc. My thinking was the specific elements I taste with the (admittedly more kilned) RB combined with the Crystal could be capable of creating the deep fruit flavours in TOP, whereas Choc will just produce that standard roasty, toasty malt flavour. Does that sound ok to your imagination? I'll probably stick to the RB without any other feedback, but just thought I'd see if anyone thought otherwise.
Also, their website specifies "generous blend of finest pale, crystal and roasted barley". Fwiw.


Hey bribie, you still there? [emoji185]

 

[technobabble66]

I'm going to have a bash at an OP. TB's recipe looks the business. According to this website: http://www.beer-pages.com/stories/theakston.htm - bitterness to 29 (presumably IBU) and colour to 95 although 95 EBC would be absolutely pitch black, surely? OP isn't that dark although obviously it is dark. I wonder if OP has something like black treacle in it? I'm going to throw in a can and see what occurs.

"Theakston Old Peculier, 5.6%
95 colour, 29 bitterness, brewed with ale and crystal malts, wheat, maize, cane sugar and caramel, hopped with Challenger, Fuggles and Target. "

Color units are not necessarily EBC, fwiw. Though you'd assume that's what they're referring to.
Yeah, I'd agree. 95 EBC is gonna be pitch black. I did an Irish red recently that was calculated at 33 EBC and seemed to be (accidentally) close to dark red enough to be similar to a TOP. Hence, I went with slightly less that graham wheelers recipe, and aimed for ~42 EBC.

Interesting, I've never seen that article (from '04) & I've done a lot of research on a TOP clone! Great find!!
The hops are right, I believe. I'm not convinced on the grist though. The Brits have a history of using all sorts of adjuncts, but I'm not sure about tasting anything like wheat or maize in it. Having tried a few Belgian strongs that use various syrups, I'd def agree sugars/syrups/caramels may be used in TOP. I'm curious (given the probable accuracy of the hops), whether the entire recipes are truly taken from the brewery, or if there's a mix of truth and author's conjecture in there.

For this next batch, I'm going to exercise enormous restraint and try to keep it simple, then go from there.
One of my more recent interests is homemade Belgian Candi syrup, so TOP clones could be another outlet for my syrup experiments.

 

[welly2]

"Theakston Old Peculier, 5.6%
95 colour, 29 bitterness, brewed with ale and crystal malts, wheat, maize, cane sugar and caramel, hopped with Challenger, Fuggles and Target. "

Color units are not necessarily EBC, fwiw. Though you'd assume that's what they're referring to.
Yeah, I'd agree. 95 EBC is gonna be pitch black. I did an Irish red recently that was calculated at 33 EBC and seemed to be (accidentally) close to dark red enough to be similar to a TOP. Hence, I went with slightly less that graham wheelers recipe, and aimed for ~42 EBC.

Interesting, I've never seen that article (from '04) & I've done a lot of research on a TOP clone! Great find!!
The hops are right, I believe. I'm not convinced on the grist though. The Brits have a history of using all sorts of adjuncts, but I'm not sure about tasting anything like wheat or maize in it. Having tried a few Belgian strongs that use various syrups, I'd def agree sugars/syrups/caramels may be used in TOP. I'm curious (given the probable accuracy of the hops), whether the entire recipes are truly taken from the brewery, or if there's a mix of truth and author's conjecture in there.

For this next batch, I'm going to exercise enormous restraint and try to keep it simple, then go from there.
One of my more recent interests is homemade Belgian Candi syrup, so TOP clones could be another outlet for my syrup experiments.

Agreed - where did the maize and wheat came from? It's not even suggested on the Theakstons website. Although, of course they could well not be telling everything that's in the beer, which would be understandable and not a surprise. I think I'll be trying your recipe with the addition of a tin of Lyle's Black Treacle - there's something that suggests an addition along those lines might be in it - and see what that gets me. Even if it's not absolutely identical to TOP, it's going to be tasty!

 

[technobabble66]

Tasted the Lyles Treacle recently?
It's like straight molasses.
I assumed it'd be like a more intense version of CSR Golden Syrup (cf the Lyles GS, which is v tasty, btw). Nope. Like what we used to feed the goats instead. Could easily be what they stick into it, but i've still got reservations throwing it in mine.
.... so i'm keen for you to throw it into yours and let me know how it goes h34r: :lol:

 

[welly2]

Tasted the Lyles Treacle recently?
It's like straight molasses.
I assumed it'd be like a more intense version of CSR Golden Syrup (cf the Lyles GS, which is v tasty, btw). Nope. Like what we used to feed the goats instead. Could easily be what they stick into it, but i've still got reservations throwing it in mine.
.... so i'm keen for you to throw it into yours and let me know how it goes h34r: :lol:

Ah, what's the worst that could happen! Actually, the more I read the more I find it would be suitable for a stout but not necessarily for a TOP clone. Might have to rethink it! Perhaps some demerama sugar. I'll have to do a bit more research!

 

[technobabble66]

On to the choice of Yeast:

I'm fairly convinced the yeast is especially important to get the fruit flavours in a TOP clone (kinda obvious for an UK ale, but even more so for TOP).
So i'm particularly keen to narrow the options down to a few likely winners.
However, i currently know very little about the subtle (ester) differences between the various UK ale strains (and are currently hampered by everyone seemingly out of stock of most of the likely candidates :angry: ).

Anywho, the list seems to be maybe:
Wyeast - 1469 (shout-out to Bribie!), 1968, 1318, 1028, 1728
White Labs - 2,4,6,7,17, 22, 23, 26, 51
(As taken from suggestions to style by the respective companies).

Of these, the likeliest candidates from my reading might be:
WY1469, ... then WLP004, WY1318, WY1968, WLP006.

Anyone who's used these care to comment on what each of these brings and what might be the better selection(s) for a TOP clone?

EDIT: from the post below, the likely 2 would be 1469 & 1187 ... but i may still need some back-up options :unsure:

 

[manticle]

1187 ringwood

 

[technobabble66]

Oh yeah, Ringwood.
Bugger, another one to add to the list :blink:
Thanks mants!

When it says "distinct fruit esters" in the 1187 description, could you suggest which particular fruit they're talking about?

e.g.: WLP-022 (i think it was) sounded perfect until i dredged through the feedback to see a few people labelling the "fruit esters" from it being largely "peach". Which would be great in other UK ales, but not right for a TOP, i think.


....more reading later, i've scoured a few AHB threads on it and there's mention of "stone fruits" and "plum." Does that sound about right?

I notice that the yeast possibly originates from the East Yorkshire region, so that'd probably make 1187 & 1469 the prime contenders, at the mo'

 

[Mardoo]

Fruit, mate, fruit! What are ya', a bit posh?

Usually it's stonefruit with most English yeasts I've tried. However I'm getting the Burton one that includes pear. Sounds yum.

 

[technobabble66]

Only a tad, my old fruit! [emoji6]

Yeah I'm probably being slightly pedantic in trying to avoid the pear, oak, vanilla, peach descriptors. They do make the UK yeasts sound v tasty though!

Hey, I noticed WLP005 is meant to be the equivalent of 1187.
Does that play out in anyone's experience with the 2?

 

[technobabble66]

One more quick query.

What's anyone else's opinion on Target? I've never used it.

I don't have any (amongst the mountain of hops i do have :unsure: ), so i'll need to drive to Grain&Grape to get it. (~90mins round trip).
I'm only going to need 15g to FWH with.

I have no experience with this hops, so is it likely to have any noticeable impact that the Challenger & Fuggles won't? Or can i safely sub in something else?
Or just as easily stick to the Challenger+Fuggles combo?


PS: mants, did you get back to trying the TOP?

 

[manticle]

Hasn't landed yet. Maybe today or tomorrow.

 

[technobabble66]

Ok B)

Thoughts on Target? Worth the effort?

 

[manticle]

I have used target a long time ago when attemptiong a young's special london ale homage.
From memory it works in both bittering and flavour.

Citrus comes to mind but you get that in spades from challenger. Is the hop profile in the commercial version prominent?

 

[technobabble66]

Yeah, the YCH website suggests Citrus Spicy for Target ... which is what i thought Challenger was as well. So i was hoping a could skip the Target and just amp up the Challenger & Fuggles. ( ... though their description for Challenger is Fruity Herbal Cedar :mellow: ).
But from memory TOP has a (noticeable) spicy undertone, so i'm keen to hit some spicy notes in my clone. Should Challenger do that you think?

Similarly, i haven't tried TOP in a little while - i've got a bottle from McCoppins sitting in the fridge, but haven't had a crack at it as i've had a slight cold for a few days since getting it. I'll hopefully try it tonight or tmrw and gauge whether what & how much of the hops are prominent. I just was hoping to get my driving out of the way today while a had a window to do it in.

 

[manticle]

Challenger for me is fruity marmalade. If you notice the spicy undertone and equate that with a hop character, use target.
Or use it next time if you think it's missing in the final brew.

 

[technobabble66]

OK.
Thanks!

I've got buckets of Hall Mitt in the freezer.
Do you think i could use 15g of Hall Mitt to bring in a little spiciness, and crank up the Challenger (& bring in a little Fuggles, all as FWH, to compensate. Plus keep a reasonable chunk of Challenger & Fuggles for cube-hopping.

Do you think that might work ok, or am i ignoring something in Hall Mitt that might turn out weird?



So the hopping schedule i'm considering is currently looking like:
15g each of Challenger, Fuggles, & Hall Mitt all at FWH
20g Challenger & 10g Fuggles @ 20mins (cubed)
(~37-38 IBU)

(the prev version was replace the Hall mitt with 15g Target, & drop the FWH Challenger & Fuggles to 10g each)

 

[Spiesy]

Only a tad, my old fruit! [emoji6]

Yeah I'm probably being slightly pedantic in trying to avoid the pear, oak, vanilla, peach descriptors. They do make the UK yeasts sound v tasty though!

Hey, I noticed WLP005 is meant to be the equivalent of 1187.
Does that play out in anyone's experience with the 2?

Was just going to say, I find that 005 gives more fruit than 002 or 007. It's my "go-to" yeast for ESB's.