Ok I'm Bored Let's Do A Speed Baib

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Not really. You'll most likely see significantly more turbid wort into the kettle but if you're doing everything right it'll be just as clear as 3V out.

My bunfight causing question (that I've been biting my tongue over since last night, but since Dave has broken the silence...) - I thought one of the major benefits of BIAB was always supposed to be that it is faster. 4hrs for a simple batch while aiming to break the land speed record? Dunno if I see a benefit there - unless you want the good core workout with the heavy lifting, I suppose.

Even though there was a question mark in there, I agree that the above is more of an observation than a question. Interested in people's replies though so it counts.

I think the biggest benefit of BIAB (assuming that you aren't purchasing an urn - which I know is the basis of 'pure' BIAB, so it might be a red herring I'm throwing in here anyway), is low equipment costs and simplification for entry level AG brewers. That, and for those of us less DIY-skilled - no brew rig build failures.

From my two pot BIAB to my ghetto 3V method - I actually find the ghetto 3V quicker and less labour intensive. And the initial wort clearer.

But to understand why a separate lauter tun, separate mash tun and separate kettle/s worked for me - BIAB demonstrated it in practical terms.

The other reason it might work well is that if you are in an apartment/confined brewing space, it requires far less space than a 3V rig (even those nifty ones on the trolleys), and far less cleaning.

I have no side to take in any potential bunfight - I just know that from doing both - there are pros and cons for both. I chose what works for me, but everyone's circumstances are different.

Goomba

 

[mattyra]

This debate rears its head pretty often. I'm a BIABer, but i've just bought a big esky for mashing in. While i'm very happy BIABing, i find it really hard to do higher gravity brews. I have a growing desire to brew a few huge IIPAs, RIS etc, so want to have the flexibility to mash in an esky with manifold for those occasions. However, I think for my average brews i'll continue to BIAB.

I have only done a small amount of AG but I have only done the BIAB method. I have the esky for the mash tun and another keg that I purchased for sparge water. Hoping to start a cheapo 3v system up, make some good beer to impress the finance manager. Then I might be able to get some more equipment to buy some good parts (like sight glasses and pumps).

I have a 55L esky but not sure as of yet how much grain and water that would hold (I know its 55L but that wont hold 55L of water when its full of grain). All part of the experiment tho.

 

[stuart13]

Missed a couple of plugs there Bribie From which esteemed retailer did you purchase the Brew Brite and Yeast from?

 

[Dave70]

This debate rears its head pretty often. I'm a BIABer, but i've just bought a big esky for mashing in. While i'm very happy BIABing, i find it really hard to do higher gravity brews. I have a growing desire to brew a few huge IIPAs, RIS etc, so want to have the flexibility to mash in an esky with manifold for those occasions. However, I think for my average brews i'll continue to BIAB.

Whys that?
Is it the physical limitations of the bag or rig? Efficiency? Bad back?
It's rare that I'd ever use more than 6 to 6.5kg of grain in one hit, so I guess we're talking in the order of around 12kg to be hefted.
To much load for off the shelf bags?

 

[Midnight Brew]

My bunfight causing question (that I've been biting my tongue over since last night, but since Dave has broken the silence...) - I thought one of the major benefits of BIAB was always supposed to be that it is faster. 4hrs for a simple batch while aiming to break the land speed record? Dunno if I see a benefit there - unless you want the good core workout with the heavy lifting, I suppose.

Even though there was a question mark in there, I agree that the above is more of an observation than a question. Interested in people's replies though so it counts.

I BIAB and for me its simple in the space I have but Im yet to break any land speed record. It takes me 5.5 to 6 hours to knock out a batch. I brew double batches and from crushing the grains to cleaning the kettle it takes 5.5 to 6 hours. In saying that I do a 3 step mash so with the rise times and then raising and squeezing the bag it takes 1h45m to finish the mash and squeeze. Then it takes about another 20mins to get to the boil which I do a 75min boil. Wait 10mins and throw in some hops and whirlpool and leave for another 30min. Cube then clean up.

I dont really rush anything because I brew on my days off or get up extra early to allow for the 6 hours. I also read up on a bit of brew litritature, do some odd jobs here and there, have lunch and a beer or two. No land speed records here but a happy brewer enjoying his brews.

 

[Bribie G]

Brewbright came from Mark in Newkie, yeast from CB. Thing about the high gravity brews and a 40l urn is that you are right at the limits. 50l urn would be great if they made one. I do a dunk sparge for anything over 6% - dead easy as my brew stand is on wheels so I just slide it along until the sparge bucket is under the skyhook.

My FES for the comps is 6.9 and hit gravities perfectly. So the setup is flexible, 1 or 2 pot whatever required. And step mashes are a doddle.

 

[Nick JD]

If I had a 40L kettle I would have no problems making 20L of 1.090, seeing as I can get 20L of 1.045 AG from a 19L pot. And that's not even really trying that hard - could get more.

These limitations are in your head, not your gear.

 

[stux]

If I had a 40L kettle I would have no problems making 20L of 1.090, seeing as I can get 20L of 1.045 AG from a 19L pot. And that's not even really trying that hard - could get more.

These limitations are in your head, not your gear.

The 'limitation' is that in full volume BIAB as your gravity increases your liquor:grain ratio decreases, and as that decreases your loss of efficiency to absorption in increases

Pretty graph : http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1481

You very quickly end up at <50% efficiency which means you actually end up with less extract than if you had used less grain!

Of course, the solution is simple, and it's the same solution 3V brewers use, sparge.

My preferred sparge is a dunk sparge with about 2.5:1 liquor to grain. Ie 25L for 10KG

I like Bribie's 6% rule

 

[Nick JD]

The 'limitation' is that in full volume BIAB as your gravity increases your liquor:grain ratio decreases, and as that decreases your loss of efficiency to absorption in increases

Full volume mashing in BIAB is the limitation. Who made it compulsary? I can make 20L of 1.090 in a 40L kettle and get 70% efficiency. Easy.

 

[Dave70]

My preferred sparge is a dunk sparge with about 2.5:1 liquor to grain. Ie 25L for 10KG

By dunk sparge do you mean dunking the bag into a separate vessel full of mash out temp water, letting it sit for however long then adding it back to the main kettle to achieve the final volume / OG?

Please humour me, I've only been at this for a couple of hours.

 

[stux]

By dunk sparge do you mean dunking the bag into a separate vessel full of mash out temp water, letting it sit for however long then adding it back to the main kettle to achieve the final volume / OG?

Please humour me, I've only been at this for a couple of hours.

Pretty much

How to dunk sparge :
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=906145

How I dunk sparge :
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=889748

 

[stef]

Whys that?
Is it the physical limitations of the bag or rig? Efficiency? Bad back?
It's rare that I'd ever use more than 6 to 6.5kg of grain in one hit, so I guess we're talking in the order of around 12kg to be hefted.
To much load for off the shelf bags?

Combination of factors. My pot was a bit on the small side to be adding large amounts of grain (6+ kg), and the grain does get a bit heavy. Main factor was the physical size limitation. So i got a big arse esky that i can fit more grain + water into. Guess i could have got a bigger pot and bigger bag, but i found a pretty cheap esky and i work for a large plumbing firm, so copper etc isnt a problem.

Unlike NickJD, my efficiency really suffered when i did bigger batches. Maybe he is a master brewer or just a hero or something.

 

[glenwal]

Unlike NickJD, my efficiency really suffered when i did bigger batches. Maybe he is a master brewer or just a hero or something.

You just need to do a really good sparge, keep the pot filled as much as possible, and boil the crap out of it (more boil off = more room to top up with sparge water in = greater efficiency). I generally hit around 85% efficiency doing 20L batches in my 19L pot.

 

[Nick JD]

Maybe he is a master brewer or just a hero or something.

Go with hero.

 

[stuart13]

Go with hero.

At least a hero with a sense of humour...

 

[Dave70]

Only thing I'm thinking is would a large bag fit in the throat of my 50L keggle? They look pretty fat once that grain sucks up the water.
Perhaps I could drill eleventy billion holes in a plastic bucket, sit the bag inside, drop it inside the keggle and hoist it out by the handle?
Kind of a bag in a bucket in a keggle.
The brewing equivalent of a Babushka doll, if you will.

 

[WarmBeer]

Kind of a bag in a bucket in a keggle.

BIABIABIAKBrewer.com domain name now registered. By me.

 

[stux]

Only thing I'm thinking is would a large bag fit in the throat of my 50L keggle? They look pretty fat once that grain sucks up the water.
Perhaps I could drill eleventy billion holes in a plastic bucket, sit the bag inside, drop it inside the keggle and hoist it out by the handle?
Kind of a bag in a bucket in a keggle.
The brewing equivalent of a Babushka doll, if you will.

Let Bribie trailblaze the path for you :
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=58732

PS: I believe he's back to the bag now

 

[DUANNE]

so when doing a dunk or other sparge with biab what is the advantage over 3v? i can see a clear advantage in full volume mashing with only one vessel to clean and simplicity but with a sparge these advantages seem to dissapear and what youre left with is a poor compromised version of 3v without the advantages. i have brewed both ways and have nothing against either but i am perplexed where the time saving in a biab is supposed to come from, i can actually do a batch sparged brew in less time because of the im pre heating sparge water during the mash making ramp times quicker by not heating a full volume wich takes longer to reach mashout and being able to start heating the first runnings up to boil while doing the batch sparge.

 

[glenwal]

so when doing a dunk or other sparge with biab what is the advantage over 3v?

Show me how to do 3V brewing with upfront costs of under $30 and i'm all in.

 

[DUANNE]

Show me how to do 3V brewing with upfront costs of under $30 and i'm all in.

not counting the burner and kettle or urn witch is needed either way, hlt will set you back 23 just a bunnings water barrel with a kettle element fitted, and an esky with a ball valve and piece of ss braid doable for $50 so not 30 bucks but still not far from the price of one slab of quality craft beer or a coopers brewing starter kit from big w.

 

[Dave70]

PS: I believe he's back to the bag now

Well I'm not surprised. Did you see how many people his idea made cross in that thread?

It seems there really is nothing new under the sun.


So I'm going to train a Shetland pony to to hoist my bag out by tapping it's buttocks with a mash paddle.
Take that Mr know-all Palmer..

 

[glenwal]

not counting the burner and kettle or urn witch is needed either way, hlt will set you back 23 just a bunnings water barrel with a kettle element fitted, and an esky with a ball valve and piece of ss braid doable for $50 so not 30 bucks but still not far from the price of one slab of quality craft beer or a coopers brewing starter kit from big w.

But you excluded the kettle and burner, so your $73 is on top of the cost of doing biab.

Stovetop + 19L pot + sparge in a bucket that i already had = 20L batch with 85% efficiency and all for < $30

And whilst stovetop brewing isn't for everyone, the same principle applies when you scale up too. 3V cost will always be BIAB + $extra.


disclamer: nothing against 3V brewers, and i do see some advantages to 3V. This is just my reason for doing BIAB with a sparge.

 

[bum]

Tonnes of blokes started 3v with crap they weren't using from the back of their shed. There you go - free beer.

Stupid argument had far too often.

 

[glenwal]

Stupid argument had far too often.

Yeah your right, i have had a few - so appologies. :icon_drunk:

 

[bum]

"Stupid" was probably a bit harsh but it does get tiresome.

There's cheap rigs. There's expensive rigs. Neither will guarantee the quality of the beer either way. Do the best you can with what you've got. Enjoy the process.

 

[DUANNE]

But you excluded the kettle and burner, so your $73 is on top of the cost of doing biab.

Stovetop + 19L pot + sparge in a bucket that i already had = 20L batch with 85% efficiency and all for < $30

And whilst stovetop brewing isn't for everyone, the same principle applies when you scale up too. 3V cost will always be BIAB + $extra.


disclamer: nothing against 3V brewers, and i do see some advantages to 3V. This is just my reason for doing BIAB with a sparge.

no drama, i can see the advantage that way with youre limitations stove top is a great method and intro into ag brewing. i still cant see when going full volume the advantages of dicking around with sparging and dicking around to save on a small extra investment that will give clearer wort and less trub losses and the effiancy youre doing it for in less time.

 

[mikec]

Let Bribie trailblaze the path for you :
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=58732

PS: I believe he's back to the bag now

HEY BRIBIE!
This reminded me to ask - why did you go back to the bag? I'm putting together a bucket in pot system similar to your one from last year. Cons?

 

[Maheel]

In Bribie G tradition

9.10am clean 3 piece valve and attach drill to mill
9.20 grain milled

open hot tap into bucket in sink
attach valve
pour in 15L
turn on power to element
pour in 17L
wait.... stir ....

9.35 strike temp +-67

current 9.40 mash in mash temp +-65 wrap in blanket


go turn on coffee machine

 

[Maheel]

ahhhh.. bringing back the norm...