brettprevans
HB so good, it will raise the dead
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work computers are down. hardly anyone around. will this long crappy day never end?
No Topic Thread
- Thread starter bum
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Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:
ben_sa
Now in 3V
Adelaide weather seems to have come in a bit **** in the past hour....
Leigh
Made at Home
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brettprevans
HB so good, it will raise the dead
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cough up the link!
ben_sa
Now in 3V
my ******** workplace banned everything mildly amusing, youtube, even worldofsolitaire!!! FFS!!! This is the only beer site i can access without the internet filter saying "this site is banned - alcohol and drugs"
I cant even go onto craftbrewer!
I cant even go onto craftbrewer!
Pennywise
Brewin' Beer for Crazy Clowns & Juggalo's
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Pennywise
Brewin' Beer for Crazy Clowns & Juggalo's
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I don't mind spiders as long as their not hairy. F**k I hate hairy spiders, creepy little f**kers
peas_and_corn
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I cannot mash that
I just had a very relieving dump.
raven19
Homer is God
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raven19
Homer is God
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We have monday off in Melbourne here too, for an even better reason. "Labour Day", about as usefull as the UK Bank holidays!
So refer to Adams above post.
Labour = day off. :unsure:
Makes perfect sense to me! :icon_cheers:
schooey
Well-Known Member
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I don't mind spiders perse, even the hairy ones. I just hate the ones that are big and black and like to live in sneaky places with big fangs that can freakin' well kill you... <_<
brettprevans
HB so good, it will raise the dead
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i fkn hate all spiders. HATE THEM!
on the plus side ive just had 2pints and a pot of dirty angel beer and feeling pretty good about things
on the plus side ive just had 2pints and a pot of dirty angel beer and feeling pretty good about things
Fourstar
doG reeB
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i fkn hate all spiders. HATE THEM!
on the plus side ive just had 2pints and a pot of dirty angel beer and feeling pretty good about things
Invite.... Where was it?!? <_<
brettprevans
HB so good, it will raise the dead
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sorry mate, spur of the moment. ummmmm you wouldnt have liked it. hows that foor an excuse? does it make you feel better?
Maple
Talkin' bout a Rye-volution
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4*, besides, there was only about 10 perv targets, and the beer was only averagely fantastic, nothing new... but like CM2 pointed out, it really was spur of the moment, there and gone in a couple o pints
(mental note, include 4* next time)
Sorry, back to off-topic.
brettprevans
HB so good, it will raise the dead
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for those who are interested in the health debate but have nfi whats going on in regards to detail.....from today's croakey...this guy is pretty much spot on.
Why the AMA is happy about Rudds plans, and the rest of us should be worried
March 5, 2010 7:01 am, by Croakey
Professor Gavin Mooney, health economist and regular Croakey contributor, writes:
In at least one regard the statement at the National Press Club from the PM shows an astonishing lack of understanding of the health care system, its ethics and its power base.
I do not deny there are good bits in what he said but here I want to look at just one. He suggests that we must fix the problem that too many of our local clinical leaders are not adequately involved in decisions about delivery of health and hospital services in their local communities, when they invariably know best.
Of course the AMA welcomes the idea of local networks/boards. These will be dominated by medical staff and medical thinking.
Is that so bad? Well there are a number of problems here.
First an ethical problem. The task of clinical doctors is to do the best they can for their patients. Medical ethics supports this. That is what I want from any doctor who is treating me. However if sitting on a local hospital network board, a surgeon will have to weigh up her demands on hospital resources with the demands of a psychiatrist. That is a different and conflicting ethical issue as compared with the ethics of decision making about individual patient care. The individual ethics of medicine come in conflict with a more social ethic. It is unfair, inappropriate and inefficient to have that dilemma in one person much better to separate the roles.
Second, a distribution of power issue. In any local board when a surgeon and a psychiatrist face off against one another over resource allocation decisions, who will win?
Third, another distribution of power issue. In any local board with a surgeon, a nurse, an administrator and some lay person facing off against each other, who will win?
Fourth, yet another distribution of power issue. Devolved and decentralised power as envisaged by the PM sounds good. But it is not devolved and decentralised to the local people which is what ideally ought to happen.
Fifth, yet another distribution of power issue. The power of the AMA will be strengthened as it will not devolve power to local areas and the countervailing power that currently exists, albeit weakly, at state level will be gone. And the AMA does not use its power objectively. Here in the West at least, it seldom pushes for more resources for health care or even for hospitals. The push is for more money for tertiary hospitals.
Sixth, the issue of competence. Clinicians are good at treating, and are trained to treat, patients. There is enormous confusion or at least lack of understanding in the PMs statement when he argues that in decision making at a local level our local clinical leaders invariably know best. I am stunned that the PM can confuse decision making in patient care with health service planning.
Seventh, hospital and health service management. The PM took a populist swipe at bureaucrats as he rollicked his way through his speech. Just think what it must be like to be a hospital manager hearing the PMs speech. Essentially he argued that clinicians should be managing the system rather than distant bureaucrats. That really does a lot for morale among health service managers! Health service management could be better but the place to start in improving it is to recognise that health service management is a highly skilled job requiring highly trained people. It does not need amateurs in health service management who may double up as highly trained clinicians.
This is all very worrying. Most good doctors want to concentrate on what they are good at which is treating patients. The power of doctors is great and it is greater the closer they are to decision making. But there is a need for the PM to recognise that there are limits to the areas of competence of doctors.
Some relevant examples from my own experiences.
1. I was commissioned by a Chief Medical Officer (who was still working as a part time clinician) to liaise with a group of doctors to work out which of three surgical units should be closed because, to keep all of them open, was inefficient. We provided the answer but there was no closure. The CMO was too close to the rest of the local medical fraternity to make such a hard decision.
2. Commissioned to try to rationalise surgical waiting lists in a major hospital. More than half the surgeons refused to provide data on their waiting lists to the hospital CEO. So the study could not be done. Such problems will be worse if clinicians are on local hospital network.
3. Asked to look at priority setting in a suite of hospitals. Good study until we needed to get the chief oncologist to play ball with data etc. He refused. The study stopped as no one seemingly could force him to play ball. If clinicians on local hospital network, this sort of blocking will arise again and again.
4. Discussion with very senior manager at state level on priority setting. He was working to set priorities. How? By asking clinicians what they wanted. And resources? Budget limits? These would be brought in later! If that is the thinking at state level, at level of local hospital network?
Deeply disturbing and no wonder the AMA is gleeful! The President of the AMA apparently thinks that the government may also be willing to remove the artificial cap on hospital budgets, that doesnt allow them to always deliver necessary services.
Ah yes necessary services and to hell with the cost! The AMA are up and running in this clinical world where money grows on trees.
Post Script: Croakey was also struck by the PMs casual dishing of bureaucrats especially as he is going to be relying on them to progress and implement his health reform package. There is going to be years of work involved in this, assuming he wins the political battles. Another Croakey contributor commented yesterday that: bureaucrat is the odious word for clever, hard working public servants who put in long hours trying to save ministers (& even Prime Ministers) from themselves.
Why the AMA is happy about Rudds plans, and the rest of us should be worried
March 5, 2010 7:01 am, by Croakey
Professor Gavin Mooney, health economist and regular Croakey contributor, writes:
In at least one regard the statement at the National Press Club from the PM shows an astonishing lack of understanding of the health care system, its ethics and its power base.
I do not deny there are good bits in what he said but here I want to look at just one. He suggests that we must fix the problem that too many of our local clinical leaders are not adequately involved in decisions about delivery of health and hospital services in their local communities, when they invariably know best.
Of course the AMA welcomes the idea of local networks/boards. These will be dominated by medical staff and medical thinking.
Is that so bad? Well there are a number of problems here.
First an ethical problem. The task of clinical doctors is to do the best they can for their patients. Medical ethics supports this. That is what I want from any doctor who is treating me. However if sitting on a local hospital network board, a surgeon will have to weigh up her demands on hospital resources with the demands of a psychiatrist. That is a different and conflicting ethical issue as compared with the ethics of decision making about individual patient care. The individual ethics of medicine come in conflict with a more social ethic. It is unfair, inappropriate and inefficient to have that dilemma in one person much better to separate the roles.
Second, a distribution of power issue. In any local board when a surgeon and a psychiatrist face off against one another over resource allocation decisions, who will win?
Third, another distribution of power issue. In any local board with a surgeon, a nurse, an administrator and some lay person facing off against each other, who will win?
Fourth, yet another distribution of power issue. Devolved and decentralised power as envisaged by the PM sounds good. But it is not devolved and decentralised to the local people which is what ideally ought to happen.
Fifth, yet another distribution of power issue. The power of the AMA will be strengthened as it will not devolve power to local areas and the countervailing power that currently exists, albeit weakly, at state level will be gone. And the AMA does not use its power objectively. Here in the West at least, it seldom pushes for more resources for health care or even for hospitals. The push is for more money for tertiary hospitals.
Sixth, the issue of competence. Clinicians are good at treating, and are trained to treat, patients. There is enormous confusion or at least lack of understanding in the PMs statement when he argues that in decision making at a local level our local clinical leaders invariably know best. I am stunned that the PM can confuse decision making in patient care with health service planning.
Seventh, hospital and health service management. The PM took a populist swipe at bureaucrats as he rollicked his way through his speech. Just think what it must be like to be a hospital manager hearing the PMs speech. Essentially he argued that clinicians should be managing the system rather than distant bureaucrats. That really does a lot for morale among health service managers! Health service management could be better but the place to start in improving it is to recognise that health service management is a highly skilled job requiring highly trained people. It does not need amateurs in health service management who may double up as highly trained clinicians.
This is all very worrying. Most good doctors want to concentrate on what they are good at which is treating patients. The power of doctors is great and it is greater the closer they are to decision making. But there is a need for the PM to recognise that there are limits to the areas of competence of doctors.
Some relevant examples from my own experiences.
1. I was commissioned by a Chief Medical Officer (who was still working as a part time clinician) to liaise with a group of doctors to work out which of three surgical units should be closed because, to keep all of them open, was inefficient. We provided the answer but there was no closure. The CMO was too close to the rest of the local medical fraternity to make such a hard decision.
2. Commissioned to try to rationalise surgical waiting lists in a major hospital. More than half the surgeons refused to provide data on their waiting lists to the hospital CEO. So the study could not be done. Such problems will be worse if clinicians are on local hospital network.
3. Asked to look at priority setting in a suite of hospitals. Good study until we needed to get the chief oncologist to play ball with data etc. He refused. The study stopped as no one seemingly could force him to play ball. If clinicians on local hospital network, this sort of blocking will arise again and again.
4. Discussion with very senior manager at state level on priority setting. He was working to set priorities. How? By asking clinicians what they wanted. And resources? Budget limits? These would be brought in later! If that is the thinking at state level, at level of local hospital network?
Deeply disturbing and no wonder the AMA is gleeful! The President of the AMA apparently thinks that the government may also be willing to remove the artificial cap on hospital budgets, that doesnt allow them to always deliver necessary services.
Ah yes necessary services and to hell with the cost! The AMA are up and running in this clinical world where money grows on trees.
Post Script: Croakey was also struck by the PMs casual dishing of bureaucrats especially as he is going to be relying on them to progress and implement his health reform package. There is going to be years of work involved in this, assuming he wins the political battles. Another Croakey contributor commented yesterday that: bureaucrat is the odious word for clever, hard working public servants who put in long hours trying to save ministers (& even Prime Ministers) from themselves.
