No More Protein Resting For Me

[SJW]

I have just noticed something very interesting. I have a Dortmunder, Oktoberfest, CAP and a English Bitter on tap at the moment. The CAP and Oktoberfest were double infused with a protein rest at 52 for about 20mins, and the Dort was the Decoction that also had a protein rest. One thing I have noticed is with these 3 beers the head retention is very very BAD! The CAP is not so bad but the other 2 are no where near as good as my previous brews when I have not protein rested and just infused at 67 or so and mashed out. The English bitter on the other hand, even with very low carbonation levels holds a big rocky head right to the end, and it was mashed in at 70 deg C. It was Ross's Carbrook lite or similar. Great beer too, and at only 2.4% Alcohol.
So as John Palmer says:

Moderately-modified malts benefit from a protein rest to break down any remnant large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as to further release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today is fully modified.

I beleive this to be true as I only use fully modified malts, these being Weyermann Premium Pils in the above mentioned brews.

Steve

 

[blackbock]

SJW how can you go from being a firm advocate of protein resting to non-believer in one swoop just because you have three headless beers on tap?

Has is occurred to you that there could be multiple explanations for this phenomenon?

 

[tdh]

All malts available in AUS are well-modified (Kolbach 40+).

No need for a protein rest.

tdh

 

[agraham]

That is nice to know.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

no need for one, but I am a believer in a well aimed P rest. But... not at 52.

At 56.

This temp avoids breaking the few longer protiens into small protiens, and instead favours the production of medium length protiens that are good for head retention.

My head formation and retention improved noticeably when I began to regularly incorporate a short (5 mins or less) protien rest at 56 into my mash. But aside from the desire t improve my head retention, I dont think there is any need to do a P rest.

TB

 

[Millet Man]

no need for one, but I am a believer in a well aimed P rest. But... not at 52.

At 56.

This temp avoids breaking the few longer protiens into small protiens, and instead favours the production of medium length protiens that are good for head retention.

My head formation and retention improved noticeably when I began to regularly incorporate a short (5 mins or less) protien rest at 56 into my mash. But aside from the desire t improve my head retention, I dont think there is any need to do a P rest.

TB

+1
Took some advice from Graham Sanders a few years ago to rest at 55C and it works a treat.

Even with sorghum malt the same applies - a protein rest at 50-52C destroys body and head retention while doing it in the mid to high 50's has a much better result in terms of head retention.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[phonos]

So if you're resting at 55C, are you getting higher attenuation as you are sitting inside the beta amylase range, or is 5 mins too short for that?

Are you then raising the temp to standard mashing temperatures (e.g. 66C) or are you going slightly higher to compensate for the 5min 55C rest?

 

[warrenlw63]

Sorry to hear that Steve, I've always had the opposite experience. I've found it to be the one big improvement re; head quality on my beers.

Like everything though at least you can say you've tried it. Better to try and see if you like rather than purely theorise and never know.

To be honest great beers can be had either way. All down to what you prefer and like doing on your brewday.

Warren -

 

[BoilerBoy]

Sorry to hear that Steve, I've always had the opposite experience. I've found it to be the one big improvement re; head quality on my beers.

Like everything though at least you can say you've tried it. Better to try and see if you like rather than purely theorise and never know.

To be honest great beers can be had either way. All down to what you prefer and like doing on your brewday.

Warren -

What he said,

BB

 

[SJW]

SJW how can you go from being a firm advocate of protein resting to non-believer in one swoop just because you have three headless beers on tap?

Has is occurred to you that there could be multiple explanations for this phenomenon?

Interesting I know. Maybe the tiltle of the thread is a bit harsh.
The last beer I protein rested was the 1st Prize winning Schwarzbier I brewed back in Jan 08. Since then I have done a fair few German Lagers including the 3 on tap now with no protein rest. I did rest these one to see if it made a diff, and IMO it did.

So if you're resting at 55C, are you getting higher attenuation as you are sitting inside the beta amylase range, or is 5 mins too short for that?

Are you then raising the temp to standard mashing temperatures (e.g. 66C) or are you going slightly higher to compensate for the 5min 55C rest?

This is very intersting too, maybe 55c would be a beter number. From memory I was not over 52c and maybe even a little under.
What a shame, I will just have to keep brewing and experimenting.
Has anyone tried a rest at 40 ish to improve the liquefaction of the mash and promote enzyme activity?


Steve

 

[Weizguy]

Yes Steve, I've done a few hydration/acid rests at 35-40C.

Mostly for wheat/wit beer that benefit from the rest, and seems to increase extraction.

Les

 

[jojai]

I've forgotten where, but someone on here wrote a blog about stepped mash compared to single infusion, is this the same thing? From memory they went from 30 - 53 - 68, I'm not sure how long they left it for each temperature, but presumably an hour or so total. Anyway, point was that they reported the stepped mash achieved a tighter, creamier head that lasted until the end, whereas the single infusion head produced big foamy bubbles that burst and died quick. (They brewed a lager of some variety).

This is interesting though, because to my understanding most European commercial brands employ a protein rest and companies like Heineken have pretty strict rules about head retention (an hour undisturbed?) Anyway keep it coming because I will try the best advice for my next few brews I love a good head, so it's very valuable knowledge!

 

[kabooby]

It was in Zwickel's Blog

Link?

Kabooby

 

[kook]

Many of the recipes listed on Weyermann's website use a step mash. That said, I personally don't think it is a necessity.

 

[Julez]

All malts available in AUS are well-modified (Kolbach 40+).

No need for a protein rest.

tdh

The Kolbach Index is also known as Soluble Nitrogen Ratio. Protein is measured by Nitrogen levels in the malt. The SNR is a ratio of soluble nitrogen (or protein) to total nitrogen (or protein).

From Noonan:

"The SNR is an important indicator of malt modification. The higher the number, the more highly modified the malt. Malts destined for infusion mashing should have an SNR of 36-42%, or up to 45% for light-bodied beer. At a percentage much over 45% SNR, the beer will be thin in body and mouthfeel. For traditional lager malts, 30-33% indicates undermodification, and 37-40% indicates overmodification."

So if you look up the spec sheet on your malt, you should see whether a protein rest is appropriate or not. Even the Weyermann Bo Pils malt is 38-42%, according to their spec sheet, so TDH may be right for the vast majority of barley-based malts available in Aus. As Noonan says, when the SNR gets to 45%, the beer will become thin and watery, so applying a protein rest to an already well-modified malt will cause this result.

That's the theory - practise may be different of course

 

[jojai]

Yeah that's the one Kabooby: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...hp?showentry=15

My next beer is a witbier so I'm going to do the 40C rest thing, should 5 minutes be enough?

 

[SJW]

Weyermann Permium Pilsner that I have been using is between 37.5 and 40.0.
Its just interesting, and I guess everyone system works a little differently. I am just used to have very tight, dense heads on my Single infused + mashed out Lagers.
As I now have many years of brewing ahead of me, maybe I will get to the bottom of it yet.
Next time I might aim for a few more deg C for the protein rest.
It had no detrimental effects doing a 52 deg C protein rest with the CAP, as there was 30% Flaked Maize in that.
Just odd that the Okoberfest that was a double infusion and the Dortmunder that was Decoction had these results.
Not a big deal though.
Alway learning, always learning

 

[jojai]

Steve, do you brew any particular beer quite regularly? Perhaps trial a few different mashing systems to find out what works best. Although, then there's always the fact that different ingredients will work better with different mashes.

 

[dr K]

For whats it's worth I do a thick dough-in with an anticipated mash temp of 55-60C, I then add 80-90C water to slowly get the mash up to my sacc rest temp (66-69 depending on what I want to achieve), if I miss badly and the mash gets a bit thin (ie it starts overflowing the tun!!) I recirculate a bit, this is uncommon though.
I would not call this a stepped infusion, I would not call it a protein rest either but it works for me.
Certainly the so called protein rest at 50c is counter-productive (in all barley beers) given the type of malts we use.

K

 

[wessmith]

Folks, the Kolbach Index is a guide - read guide only. You would need to see the actual protein level of the raw barley to determine if the malt is readily brewable or not. The higher the protein level, the higher the Kolbach Index will be to compensate.

At the end of the day you need to trust the maltster.

Wes