No-chiller Moving To Immersion Chiller

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Makes perfect sense Thirsty Boy, thanks. My next brew day I will put these tips into practice. How many brewers do both chilling and no-chilling? I'm thinking my lack of fermentation fridge space may see me doing a combination of both.

Cheers
 
Cold break sinks very very slowly - even if you have used kettle finings and have gone to the trouble of working out the correct amount. If you immersion chill, it still wont have settled in any apreciable way in the amount of time its practical to let it rest. People who immersion chill and think they are "leaving behind" the cold break are pretty much kidding themselves. The best they are doing is leaving behind a little bit and transferring the majority to the fermenter just like everyone else.

Thirsty Boy,
I have seen people who immersion chill and also have a stainless steel mesh filter, similiar to a "hop stopper" in the bottom of their kettle.
Do you think that would strain out the cold break when transferring from the kettle to the fermenter?
 
Do you think that would strain out the cold break when transferring from the kettle to the fermenter?
If its fine enough to filter the break, then its going to get clogged up pretty quickly imo.
 
I set up a whirlpool pump with sparge arm on my kettle once ala Jamil - besides it being a bit faster to chill I still ended up with break - all that happened was I had break at the bottom in a cone (from the initial whirlpool with a long spoon), no break in the middle then break floating on top where the whirlpool return was. I was using a Hoprocket though so it was filtering a lot of the break. Sure the beer in the middle was clear but it's just more stuff to clean and sanitise on brewday.

Now i just start off a whirlpool with a large spoon about 5 minutes after boil finishes (so convection currents from the hot pot don't stir it up too much) then kick off the chiller and give it a gentle stir until it starts to get down to about 70C or so, then I leave it till it gets to pitching, usually there is a cone but a lot of the break material does "float" back around the fermenter. Never really noticed it causing a problem if it gets in the fermenter, made some clean lagers/kolsch with a fair amount of break in.
 
Thirsty Boy,
I have seen people who immersion chill and also have a stainless steel mesh filter, similiar to a "hop stopper" in the bottom of their kettle.
Do you think that would strain out the cold break when transferring from the kettle to the fermenter?

yeah - why not. some of it at least. If you have some hops in there, they'll build up on the mesh, a depth filter will develop and it will eventually run clear.... you might need to re-circ a bit back into the kettle. How much will it clog? How fast will it flow?? I suspect lots and slowly and that if it isn't lots and slowly, then its probably not doing that great a job.

If i want to exclude cold break (I normally dont) I just fail to tip it out of my NC cube - if for some reason I want to both rapidly chill AND exclude cold break - then I'd just cool wort with a regular whirlpool (i use a plate chiller, but thats irrelevant) and transfer to fermenter without worrying about cold break, and probably being a little less fussy about hot break too - then after pitching and about 24 hrs later, just before things start to get going fermentation wise - I'd rack away from the trub in the fermenter. That'd exclude any leftover hot break and a decent proportion of the cold break (not all of it mind you, just a decent whack)

But mostly I whirlpool, and then run clean hotbreak free wort to either a cube or a plate chiller. Cold break has minimal to zero negative effects on beer quality - so it just goes to fermenters and I ignore it.
 
Cold break mostly just settles out to a neutral layer at the bottom of the fermenter. For those who came in late, about 3 years ago I did an experiment where I brewed two batches of an identical Aussie style Ale and no chilled them. I poured the top clear halves of both cubes into a fermenter and the bottom halves into the other - with all the cold break and other shyte.

Then when the beers were ready to drink I took bottles of each to a club meeting for a blind test and on balance the cold break brew was described as a bit fuller and hoppier, not that many people could tell a lot of difference between them anyway.
 
I listened to that basic brewing podcast last week - where they got 20 people around the world to split their batch (taking clear wort into one vessel and clumpy hotbreak into the other) and then report back on how it went.

More than half (including a few triangle testers) found that the hotbreak left in tasted better, fermented better and cleared better.

That's right - fermenting on the hotbreak.
 
yeah - why not. some of it at least. If you have some hops in there, they'll build up on the mesh, a depth filter will develop and it will eventually run clear.... you might need to re-circ a bit back into the kettle. How much will it clog? How fast will it flow?? I suspect lots and slowly and that if it isn't lots and slowly, then its probably not doing that great a job.

If i want to exclude cold break (I normally dont) I just fail to tip it out of my NC cube - if for some reason I want to both rapidly chill AND exclude cold break - then I'd just cool wort with a regular whirlpool (i use a plate chiller, but thats irrelevant) and transfer to fermenter without worrying about cold break, and probably being a little less fussy about hot break too - then after pitching and about 24 hrs later, just before things start to get going fermentation wise - I'd rack away from the trub in the fermenter. That'd exclude any leftover hot break and a decent proportion of the cold break (not all of it mind you, just a decent whack)

But mostly I whirlpool, and then run clean hotbreak free wort to either a cube or a plate chiller. Cold break has minimal to zero negative effects on beer quality - so it just goes to fermenters and I ignore it.

Cheers TB for the informative reply.
 
I have reduced my kettle losses to under 100ml since installing a false bottom. The break material seems to collect ontop of the hop devbri. that geing said, I couldn't care less about hot or cold break going through to the fermenter, personally. The end results are fine either way. Anyway, just my 2c - my kettle false bottom was the best upgrade I've fine and I have not since looked back and wondered if there were better options.
 
I have reduced my kettle losses to under 100ml since installing a false bottom. The break material seems to collect ontop of the hop devbri. that geing said, I couldn't care less about hot or cold break going through to the fermenter, personally. The end results are fine either way. Anyway, just my 2c - my kettle false bottom was the best upgrade I've fine and I have not since looked back and wondered if there were better options.

Just a quick question about false bottoms in boil kettles. Is it ok to join the elbow from the false bottom to the spigot using a short piece of silicone hose? How does this hold up when boiling the wort for a hour or more? What is the best way to connect if this is no good? Thanks for the advice.

Never mind just thought of the fact nothing would be holding the false bottom down.

Cheers
 
Just a quick question about false bottoms in boil kettles. Is it ok to join the elbow from the false bottom to the spigot using a short piece of silicone hose? How does this hold up when boiling the wort for a hour or more? What is the best way to connect if this is no good? Thanks for the advice.

Never mind just thought of the fact nothing would be holding the false bottom down.

Cheers

Yeah you need to put a rigid pipe in there to hold it in place, probably copper pipe with a couple of compression fittings is the best way to go about it.
 
... I also got a bit miffed with pouring 3 or 4 litres of break/trub ladened wort down the sink. ...
Tight Arse Tip #5 - let the remnants settle a bit, then pour into another pot
leaving as much crud behind as possible, boil, pour into a flask, cap with foil
and when cooled, add to fermenter.
 
I switched to a kettle FB after nothing I tried yielded a successful whirlpool. I reckon if your vessel whirlpools well and your wort to fermenter is reasonably clean and your losses acceptable then no great need for a FB. I use a keggle and went with a flat FB; the pick up tube sits nicely I'm the central dimple, just as it was designed for. I also have a secondary FB that is designed to sit within the dimple under the full keg diameter FB and this catches pretty much anything that gets through the first layer. Most times I remove it for cleaning I'd be lucky to find more than 20ml on the bottom. Sometimes it's bone dry.
 
I listened to that basic brewing podcast last week - where they got 20 people around the world to split their batch (taking clear wort into one vessel and clumpy hotbreak into the other) and then report back on how it went.

More than half (including a few triangle testers) found that the hotbreak left in tasted better, fermented better and cleared better.

That's right - fermenting on the hotbreak.

I took part in the Basic Brewing experiment, so just thought I would share my results


Style of Beer: Cream Ale
Type: All Grain on Direct Fire RIMS Brew Date: 7/01/2012
Boil Time: 90 min Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00%
Ingredients
Amt Name Type %/IBU
2100.00 g Bohemian Pilsner (Floor Malted) (2.0 EBC) Grain 1 40.4 %
2100.00 g Perle Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (6.3 EBC) Grain 2 40.4 %
800.00 g Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 3 15.4 %
200.00 g Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 3.8 %
30.00 g Hallertau [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 21.2 IBUs
20.00 g Hallertau [7.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min 0.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)


After boiling the wort was whirlpooled and cooled with an immersion chiller for 45 minutes to let the trub settle. 3 gal of clear wort was syphoned into the first fermenter. The remaining wort was then stirred to rouse the trub off the bottom of the boil kettle and 3 gal were syphoned into the second fermenter. I estimate that 2/3 of the trub was carried over into the second fermenter. Both fermenters were agitated for 3 minutes to aerate the wort and pitched with 7g of dry US-05 yeast (for simplicity I just sprinkled it on top). The fermenters were then placed in a temperature controlled water bath and fermented at 18c.

pic1.png

Pic1 The picture on the left shows samples taken directly after the wort was put in the fermenters. The Trub sample is noticeably more turbid. The picture on the right was taken 2 hours later. The trub has begun to settle out forming a layer on the bottom of the Trub sample



Differences in the beer visually
There was no difference in the head retention/volume, but there was a clear difference in the clarity. The Clear sample was cloudy whereas the Trub sample was clear

pic2.png

Pic2. The Trub sample is much clearer than the Clear sample
Tasting results
My results: I completed 2 separate triangle tests 1 week apart. Because of the obvious visual difference I used white plastic cups which didnt allow me to identity differences in the clarity of the beers. In both tests I was able to correctly identify the odd beer and correctly identify which beer was the Clear sample and which was the Trub. The taste was very similar, and it is hard to pinpoint the exact flavour difference. The only way I can describe it is that the Clear sample had a bit of an aftertaste (astringent might be the best description) and the Trub sample tasted cleaner. I think watching the side by side fermentation gave me some preconceptions on potential differences in the beers which is what allowed me to identify the slight difference in taste.
Additional results: I had 9 willing volunteers complete a triangle test. The participants ranged from other home brewers to people who rarely drink beer, and none of them had any knowledge of the difference in the beers before the test. Of the 9 participants 4 of them correctly identified the odd beer in the test. This is slightly higher than random (you would expect 1/3 to get it correct by just guessing), but I think the only conclusion I can make from this is that there are no strong differences in the taste of the 2 beers.

Conclusion
The taste panel showed that there was no significant difference in the taste of the 2 beers. But based on these results I will definitely never worry about getting trub into my fermenter. The sample with the trub had a stronger fermentation, was clearer and, to me, tasted better.
 
Wow thanks for sharing jkeske, awesome read while I wait for the mayhem of Christmas morning to begin. Thanks.
 
Conclusion
The taste panel showed that there was no significant difference in the taste of the 2 beers. But based on these results I will definitely never worry about getting trub into my fermenter. The sample with the trub had a stronger fermentation, was clearer and, to me, tasted better.

Great stuff! I was wondering if it was an AHB member when they said Tassie.

I have a "all in" batch (not spilt) of a house regular fermenting atm.

Thanks for your science! I love the way most people where like, "WTF!? The hot break half is better?" in their report...

I reckon you should start a thread so this doesn't get buried and goes unseen ... it's a significant change to a well-established mind-set ... and will give everyone many, many more liters of (possibly better, no worse) beer each year that usually goes down the drain.
 
it's a significant change to a well-established mind-set
No, it is entirely perception based. Not questioning jkeske's perceptions here - I am sure they are reported fairly and accurately. It is still simply a matter of perception.

I see no one talking about beer stability either - which, to my understanding, is the larger reason we exclude hot break, not flavour.

Haven't read the report on the discussion of its contents.
 
I can't fault that advice but it doesn't mean that it is automatically cool to ignore hot break.
 
No, it is entirely perception based. Not questioning jkeske's perceptions here - I am sure they are reported fairly and accurately. It is still simply a matter of perception.

I see no one talking about beer stability either - which, to my understanding, is the larger reason we exclude hot break, not flavour.

Haven't read the report on the discussion of its contents.


I don't think perception is the right word here. There were certainly differences in these beers beyond personal interpretation (i.e. clarity). But I do understand that this one experiment does not mean it is always best to put all of the hot break in the fermenter. Clearly different beer styles/ brewing procedures may not end up with the same results. The best I can say is that you need to do this for yourself to determine what works best for the beer you are making
 

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