No Chill Ibu's

[drsmurto]

You mean your not an explosives expert? Bloody beer notes.

Cheers

Synthesis and explosives go hand in hand

@ThirstyBoy - good response. One question, when you compared NC vs rapid chilling and included a small whirlpool rest did you take into account the difference in thermal mass of your 2L experiments vs a standard size single batch (20L)? A 2L batch will naturally cool down much quicker than a 20L batch. Not knocking you, just throwing out a query.

But i disagree, it's not an art at all. It's very much science. You could, if you had the right equipment, approach this question from a very scientific point of view. The reason why it hasn't been answered satisfactorily in the scientific literature is that commercial breweries chill and thus the answer is irrelevant to them. And yes, i have searched (and not via google scholar).

The end result is beer and you brewed it yourself.

If you are happy with it then it doesn't matter whether NC adds bitterness or not. :chug:

 

[felon]

The end result is beer and you brewed it yourself.

If you are happy with it then it doesn't matter whether NC adds bitterness or not.

Well said DR.

 

[drtomc]

@DrSmurto, you're absolutely right it is a science. The problem in practice is that even if we correctly characterise the process, for most of us, there are too many variables to control. Which doesn't mean you don't try.... Hey, I'm a computational biologist - I'm confronted with too many variables to control every day of the week, and I don't mean the wife or the kids.

T.

 

[manticle]

Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.

Has anyone actually said that?

 

[mje1980]

No one said that, but obviously there's an expert who knows better than everyone!

 

[Maxt]

Umm, here's couple....

I dont make any changes to hop calcs. Never noticed a perceptable difference.

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap

My point stands; anyone who says using (for example) Galaxy as 0 min addition, will give the same bitterness no chilling as in someone who get the wort below 80degrees in a few minute, is a very deluded brewer.

You will also note in my first post, that I said I don't get any bitterness difference when using singe 60 min hop addition no chilled beers.

Comprehension, a dying art.

BTW mje1980, the last line of your sig says it all :lol:

 

[mje1980]

I made no mention of late hopped high alpha hops, did I ??

 

[manticle]

Umm, here's couple....






My point stands; anyone who says using (for example) Galaxy as 0 min addition, will give the same bitterness no chilling as in someone who get the wort below 80degrees in a few minute, is a very deluded brewer.

You will also note in my first post, that I said I don't get any bitterness difference when using singe 60 min hop addition no chilled beers.

Comprehension, a dying art.

BTW mje1980, the last line of your sig says it all :lol:

There's a difference saying you don't make changes to calcs or that you believe that software is overcalculating the increase and specifically suggesting that late high aa% hops make NO difference
whatsoever. That's very specific.

As far as I know mje mainly makes bitters and milds so in those circumstances the difference is probably imperceptible. I doubt he's talking about 10 min IPAs with 180g of 14% aa hops.

Goofinder also said in his/her post that s/he DID believe it made a difference - just that the difference is overstated.

I make no changes to calcs either but I've never suggested it makes no difference. To find out the difference is exactly why I'm currentl doing a chill vs no chil experiment with a highly late hopped beer.

No need to get hoity toity.

 

[Goofinder]

Goofinder also said in his/her post that s/he DID believe it made a difference - just that the difference is overstated.

Correct, he did say that. And he still thinks that (the difference reported by Brewmate in this instance is overstated).

I think (almost) everyone agrees that there will be some increase in bitterness extracted. Whether or not this is perceptible will depend on the hopping schedule for the beer.

I originally thought that most people were moving hop additions based on a table that someone worked out for their own process. I don't read all the threads on this site, and I skip over most of the no chill ones because they are full of this sort of crap.

From what I have read in this thread it seems that at least some are adjusting hop additions based on an anticipated increase in bitterness. This way makes more sense to me.

 

[Flewy]

I wasn't there it was just hear say and blame a person who's first name is very similar to my last name

I got the impression the beers tasted so different you couldn't put it down to the chill / no chill ?

That'll teach you for staying home and relying on a n00b then won't it?

 

[Mikedub]

this topic continually *#@$ with my head, think I might have to buy an immersion chiller so I can get some sleep

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Synthesis and explosives go hand in hand

@ThirstyBoy - good response. One question, when you compared NC vs rapid chilling and included a small whirlpool rest did you take into account the difference in thermal mass of your 2L experiments vs a standard size single batch (20L)? A 2L batch will naturally cool down much quicker than a 20L batch. Not knocking you, just throwing out a query.

But i disagree, it's not an art at all. It's very much science. You could, if you had the right equipment, approach this question from a very scientific point of view. The reason why it hasn't been answered satisfactorily in the scientific literature is that commercial breweries chill and thus the answer is irrelevant to them. And yes, i have searched (and not via google scholar).

The end result is beer and you brewed it yourself.

If you are happy with it then it doesn't matter whether NC adds bitterness or not. :chug:

Is true Dr S,

I did think about it, but it came down to a "how long is a piece of string" question. If i tried to emulate an actual "full volume" cool, how fast would that be? As fast as a CF chiller? a plate chiller? An immersion chiller? Kettle in an ice bath? I'd either have to do em all or just pick a "near enough" solution. I figured that someone running with something like a JZ whirlpool-chiller type setup would be getting down to the sorts of temps where isomerisation would be negligible in maybe 5-10 minutes - and plunking a 2L erlenmyer into a waterbath and walking away is in that ball park. Near enough.... The NC version was easy, i just floated the 2Ls in an actual 20L bucket of water at cube temps and let it cool down by itself. Done.

I'd un-art it if i could, but testing for IBUs is a less than effortless process and i dont want to burn up all my good will with the lab guys. One of these days I will get them to show me how to do the test myself (the trimethylpentane/spectrophotometer one... I dont think they'll let me play with the HPLC machine) then i will revisit this stuff testing a few more variables and doing some repeats to add some validity.

In the meantime we will have to rely on the couple of rough tests i managed, to show that indeed something is happening - and rely on experience, tastebuds and a whole lot of arm waving to give us the "how much" of the situation.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

this topic continually *#@$ with my head, think I might have to buy an immersion chiller so I can get some sleep

Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:

Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?

A = No > do nothing

A = Yes > in those beers, use less bittering hops until they aren't anymore

And thats it.

 

[lastdrinks]

Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:

Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?

A = No > do nothing

A = Yes > in those beers, use less bittering hops until they aren't anymore

And thats it.

Agreed, but i do like watching a little flame war

 

[mje1980]

Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:

Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?

A = No > do nothing

A = Yes > in those beers, use less bittering hops until they aren't anymore

And thats it.

+1000!!

 

[Mikedub]

Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:

Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?

A = No > do nothing

A = Yes > in those beers, use less bittering hops until they aren't anymore

And thats it.

my post was intended as tounge n cheek, I probably should have stuck in a little yellow winking dude .
If I were losing sleep over a few IBUs I should be reviewing my priorities


my NC approach is still refining, as are other areas of my brewing, good thing too, otherwise it would get boring,

what has been working for me is I push the IBUs right up to the top of the style range almost always using a combo of first wort hopping at 45min, (the 10% increased bittering as reported in FWH articles I've read does not seem to overly bitter), I then whirlpool/cube/dry hop from there as required, happy as bro