No Chill Ibu's

[Goofinder]

Waits for Thirstyboy to respond....

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...55867&st=20

EDIT: linky

Hmm, hadn't seen that post, interesting read. The advice at the end is good - adjusting the amount of hops, not when they are added. My main issue is with this practice of 'moving' hop additions because of massive IBU increases and the belief that you can't get hop aroma in no chilled beers.

For what it's worth, I just target my recipes at ~5 IBU below where they would normally sit in the style guidelines I am aiming for. I base my flavour and aroma hop additions on an x g/L ratio and make up the bittering with a 60 minute addition.

I agree that you're going to get some increase in bitterness, but 79% (for the example above)? Not likely.

 

[Tim]

...........I currently have a house APA ...........

Manticle, care to share the recipe or link to it in the RecipeDB?

 

[manticle]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1276

 

[Tim]

Awesome

 

[drtomc]

FWIW, I've had good results using FWH (First Wort Hopping) + dry hops as my only hopping in my ESB. Sidesteps the NC-hops thing.

T.

 

[stux]

I've begun to move my additions up 15 mins in brewing software, then decreasing my bittering addition until I get the original IBUs.

I actually add the hops at the original schedule and leave the late additions as is.

So for example, 60, 20, 5 will be entered into brewing software as 75, 35 and 20. I then vary the 75 min addition until I get my original desired IBUs.

And I still add the hops as 60, 20 and 5.

My results have been fairly good, and as long as you consistantly make the changes, it should work out well.

The 5 min becoming FWH tables are rubbish

(and it saves money!)

 

[drsmurto]

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.

Consider the following:
- Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
- Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
- If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort
- There will be less convection in a cube of wort than in a boiling kettle which will also reduce isomerisation

Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?

If you start doing silly things like adding hops to the hot cube then all bets are off though...

Calculations in any brewing software are only a guide anyway based on a variety of approximations. Your best bet is to brew the beer as is and calibrate yourself against a commercial sample (with a published IBU figure) for reference. Then make any adjustments to your process if necessary to suit your taste.

[1] http://ift.confex.com/ift/2004/techprogram/paper_25787.htm

The chemical reaction that occurs (alpha acid to iso-alpha acid) will still occur at temperatures below 100C. I am not aware of any chemical reactions that stop completely when the temperatures drops a few degrees. The reaction rate will slow down, not stop instantly.

So as the wort cools down by itself isomerisaton is still occurring. The rate of colling will determine the slowing down of the rate is isomerisation.

But as you very correctly pointed out, very few brewers switch off their kettles and instantaneously chill their worts down to pitching temps.

Most of us would likely add aroma hops (if needed) then whirlpool and let it settle for 10-15 mins before beginning the chilling process. I have never chilled immediately after flameout as i use a plate chiller and need the hot break and hops to settle before chilling. Those with immersion chillers can start chilling immediately.

What is the temperature of the wort 10 mins after flameout? I don't know the answer so this is not a loaded question.

So we all are getting an increase in IBU after flameout based on the assumption that any software we use to calculate IBU doesn't take this into account.

The link to ThirstyBoys post was interesting and given his ability to measure IBU it would be very useful for him to comment on the above points.

Cheers
DrSmurto - synthetic chemist

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.

Consider the following:
- Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
- Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
- If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort
- There will be less convection in a cube of wort than in a boiling kettle which will also reduce isomerisation

Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?

If you start doing silly things like adding hops to the hot cube then all bets are off though...

Calculations in any brewing software are only a guide anyway based on a variety of approximations. Your best bet is to brew the beer as is and calibrate yourself against a commercial sample (with a published IBU figure) for reference. Then make any adjustments to your process if necessary to suit your taste.

[1] http://ift.confex.com/ift/2004/techprogram/paper_25787.htm

I did do controlled brews and had the ibus tested, as the above post points out. They are higher for NC worts. In the particular circumstances i tested the ibus were increased by an amount roughly equivalent to what would be achieved by boiling the hops for an extra 10-20 mins and rapidly chilling the wort.

In an NC cube the wort stays pretty hot and stays pretty hot for a long time, certainly long enough to isomerise a significant portion of the alpha acids that might be dissolved into your hot wort from late hop additions.

As has been mentioned, its still a very inexact "science" to guess your NC IBUs - how much it differs from rapidly chilled wort will depend on a bunch of things and it definitely only happens to any extent that need concern people when they are making a brew with late high alpha acid hops. But can it be an issue? - absolutely it can.

People didn't decide that NC beers would be more bitter because of reasons A, B and C - peple noticed that their NC beers were sometimes markedly more bitter than they were expecting and went looking for both explanations and possible ways to quantify it so they could compensate. I have no idea if brewmate gives a reasonable calculation of how NC effects bitterness. But effect it it does.

Dr Smurto - thats why its "art" rather than science. How are the ibus different for a brewer who chills with an immersion chiller vs a plate chiller? Obviously they will be because an immersion chiller drops their entore wort volume rapidly to the point where isomerisation is negligable.. A plate chiller has hot wort in contact with hops... But not all of the wort and the wholeq process is fairly fast. Whirlpool hops - obviously adds bitterness and most commercials would know this and compensate, but the brewing software does't take it into account... Just zero IBUs for anything after flameout.

Thats why you cant say anything about how a given no-chill process will compare to a given brewer's chilling process for a given beer. There are just too many variables - it might make no differrence, or the difference might be profound. I seem to recall in my tests for straigh no-chill vs chill (notes lost in hard drive crash so i dont have exact figures or method...) that i took into acount a modest whirlpool rest, then seperated the wort into two 2L erlemyers and rapidly chilled one (water bath) while letting the other cool down at approximately the rate an nc cube would cool. All hops in a sock so greenery seperation wasn't an issue. I looked at the percentage increase in IBUs one vs the other and as it turned out neither of them were even close to the ibus predicted by rager and pro-mash for the hopping regime used.

i think that if a recipe contains significant late hopping with high alpha acid hops, then you are likely toJ notice a significant increase in bitterness if you no-chill the beer vs if you rapidly cool the wort - BUT - I think people who are unsure should always just brew a recipe as its written and not worry about this stuff. If it turns out more bitter than they were expecting, then this stuff might be a place to start looking for explanations and solutions. If you are an experienced no chiller and know how your system generally performs... Then you already know what to do and my opinion, what the software says or what anyone else says is irrelevant to you, do what works for your system and tastebuds.

 

[bradsbrew]

Cheers
DrSmurto - synthetic chemist

You mean your not an explosives expert? Bloody beer notes.

Good read all the same. Has almost got me contimplating trying chilling.

Cheers

 

[herbo]

Personally when I read Goofinder's original post (as in the whole no chill and adjusting your hop schedule is a load of crap) I was tempted to post that I agree. Then I read the post by Thirstyboy that's linked in this thread and thought more about it. The main point that I can add to argument is that at one of our previous brew meet ups here in sunny Ballarat there were two of us brewers that had bought along the famous Tony's Bright Ale in bottle, both of us had used the same recipe (including hop schedules), mine was no-chilled and the other was chilled. No-one that tasted them side-by-side could taste any difference.

I know the above is hardly very scientific. In addition the following are points related to what I have done in the past:
1. I never adjust hop additions.
2. All hop additions go into one of the large Craftbrewer hop socks, and then hop sock (and spent hops) are removed once the burner goes out - this is a variable that TB mentions in his linked post. I'm not sure if it makes any difference (i.e. removing them), but perhaps it makes some.
3. After the boil I wait about 10 mins for all of the heat currents to subside, then whirlpool, then probably wait another 10 mins. Then drain into the cube. Last time I did this I measured the temp of the wort when I was draining it into the cube and it was 82 degrees.
4. If there is a 0 min addition I usually put that in a small piece of voile into the cube. For my tastes I've had no issues with getting the aroma I want doing it this way so haven't felt the need to try anything different.

Anyway I'm from the school of no hop adjustments for no-chill and will continue that way. Works for me.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I significantly edited my post above to address Dr Smurto.

 

[bradsbrew]

4. If there is a 0 min addition I usually put that in a small piece of voile into the cube. For my tastes I've had no issues with getting the aroma I want doing it this way so haven't felt the need to try anything different.

Your point 4 has me interested.

I am now thinking what if I added my 10min hops, in a peice of voile with floss attatched, to a nearly full cube as it fills and when it is full screw the cap on as per usual. Then after 15 min remove the viole, squeeze out air space and rescrew on cap. Yes there will still be oils present but surely this process would lower the IBU's created as opposed to the normal late/cube hop addition???????????

Cheers Brad

 

[Maxt]

Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.

 

[bradsbrew]

Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.

IMHO if you add high AA hops even as a dry hop it can be percieved as more bitter.

 

[QldKev]

Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.

IMHO if you add high AA hops even as a dry hop it can be percieved as more bitter.

This thread went from I can read a stupid program with stupid 1 fits all no-chill corrections, that is retarded

TO, I have taste buds

Awesome

I'm not saying I know all, but use your own taste buds and it is easy

QldKev

 

[argon]

Your point 4 has me interested.

I am now thinking what if I added my 10min hops, in a peice of voile with floss attatched, to a nearly full cube as it fills and when it is full screw the cap on as per usual. Then after 15 min remove the viole, squeeze out air space and rescrew on cap. Yes there will still be oils present but surely this process would lower the IBU's created as opposed to the normal late/cube hop addition???????????

Cheers Brad

Brad the only time I've added hops in a bag into the cube (normally commando) it was a major pain in the arse to get the bag out. The hops swell up like a 13 year old at strip club. Not saying it can't be done... But I wouldn't want to be doing it in almost boiling hot wort in a cube.

 

[NickB]

I have cube hopped a few times, and I usually just throw them in the cube, then into primary. Mind you, I've only done this with stupidly hoppy US beers. Works a treat though!

Cheers

 

[bradsbrew]

Brad the only time I've added hops in a bag into the cube (normally commando) it was a major pain in the arse to get the bag out. The hops swell up like a 13 year old at strip club. Not saying it can't be done... But I wouldn't want to be doing it in almost boiling hot wort in a cube.

I have cube hopped a few times, and I usually just throw them in the cube, then into primary. Mind you, I've only done this with stupidly hoppy US beers. Works a treat though!

Cheers

Yep I've done the cube hop thingy before and have had mixed results. Was thinking more along the lines if I could remove them it "should/could" yeild more flavour/aroma and less of the associated bitterness that cube hopping brings and hopefully get me closer to a chilled beer. Perhaps something similar to a CB hop blocker that won't swell and will slip back through the cap hole?

Cheers

 

[lastdrinks]

I think the original poster has been scared off.

 

[fergi]

as a n/c brewer i find this topic pretty interesting,i have never chilled my beers and as i have only done around 10 ag brews i am hardly qualified to comment on the added/perceived bitterness of no chill,however as a "MORON" i have tasted the same brews that i have made against a mate who chills his wort,same recipes ,same procedure except chill/no chill.now both of us cannot taste any added bitterness between the two different methods,

now admittedly i think the beers i have made are all 60 min boils and not big beers,but do you think the perceived added bitterness is the same as the placebo effect in medicinal tests.is it really as much as some people believe, i dont know , maybe people think it should be more bitter so they believe it.

fergi