No Chill Ibu's

[Rieewoldt]

Hi

I am gonna have a crack at My first AG (BIAB) on my break this week, Tony's LCBA. I will be no chilling, I have put the recipe into Brewmate and clicked the No chill option, taking the IBU from 31.3 to 56.3. Really?....If this is correct what is the best way to offset this? bring additions back 10 or so minutes? less hops?

any feedback appreciated!

 

[Maxt]

I only no chill single 60 min hop addition beers for this very reason.
But yes, scale back your bittering hop addition to match your target.

 

[Rieewoldt]

Can't believe it has such a big effect, why is that you reckon?

 

[lastdrinks]

Some else can give a more detailed response but basically its because the wort in the cube is still close to boiling for a time after you put the lid on and therefore converting hops to IBU's. So those late hop additions are getting an extra 10 to 15 minutes of boil time equivilent giving of the extra IBU's.

 

[bignath]

Some else can give a more detailed response but basically its because the wort in the cube is still close to boiling for a time after you put the lid on and therefore converting hops to IBU's. So those late hop additions are getting an extra 10 to 15 minutes of boil time equivilent giving of the extra IBU's.

That's about as detailed as the answer needs to be.

In addition though, i'd also say that No Chilling isn't an exact science. Neither is Chilling actually, but it's a lot closer to being exact than No Chill. The final IBU's are effected by lots of factors besides time and temp. Your ambient temp where the cube is placed after the lid's put on it is an obvious thing that will change from location to location.

Think of the No Chill button on Brewmate as being a "best guess" guide to tell you approx where the IBU's will end up.

As i said, it's not exact, but im sure it will make recipe formulation for No Chiller (i'm one of them) a lot easier to work out bitterness levels.

FWIW, those IBU figures are probably about right. From memory, that recipe has a decent amount of hops in it and the greater the amount of hops in a no chill recipe, the greater the disparity would be between chilling and no chilling.

eg: an aussie style knock off recipe that has 20g of POR will be effected less by no chilling than a massively hopped 200g IPA.....

 

[mje1980]

I dont make any changes to hop calcs. Never noticed a perceptable difference. Like has been said, not an exact science, plus people's taste's are different also.

 

[Goofinder]

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.

Consider the following:
- Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
- Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
- If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort
- There will be less convection in a cube of wort than in a boiling kettle which will also reduce isomerisation

Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?

If you start doing silly things like adding hops to the hot cube then all bets are off though...

Calculations in any brewing software are only a guide anyway based on a variety of approximations. Your best bet is to brew the beer as is and calibrate yourself against a commercial sample (with a published IBU figure) for reference. Then make any adjustments to your process if necessary to suit your taste.

[1] http://ift.confex.com/ift/2004/techprogram/paper_25787.htm

 

[bignath]

- Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
- If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort

Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?

I thought it was the oils in the hops that were isomerised and therefore bitterness would still be affected. You may leave the green stuff behind but that doesn't mean bitterness isn't changing in the wort.

Happy to be corrected on this.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I do a lot of no-chill and they are not big hopped IPAś... mostly around 35-40 IBU

There is a change on hop flavour and taste, but its not over the top, but it does tend to become more bitter than a chilled beer.

Adjusting hop additions to account for this for this may help, but it is a tricky thing to do.

It is just one of the downsides of n0-chill beers

 

[Amber Fluid]

It won;t be long before I start BIAB brews and this is starting to worry me a bit. Is it worth worrying about or should I just do one and taste for myself?
I will be no-chilling into a 15L cube but am worried now that any hop additions I make will be a bit over the top.
What about late additions for Aroma?... will this impart into more bittering instead?

Sorry if this is slightly OT but here seemed the perfected time to ask without having to make a new thread.

 

[j1gsaw]

If im doing a big hoppy beer and concerned about over bittering with NC, i usually just chill the wort for like 5/10 mins then cube it, it takes away the boiling point but still remains hot enough to ward off any nasties in the cube. works great imo.

 

[mxd]

It won;t be long before I start BIAB brews and this is starting to worry me a bit. Is it worth worrying about or should I just do one and taste for myself?

just do it, try the beer and then tune the recipe, if you think it's too bitter and without the aroma, then look at moving your late hops later or drop the late hops and do some dry hopping, french pressing etc..

I have tasted some 90 IBU beer and thought it was magnificent and then had a 30 IBU thought I thought was harsh and bitter, it comes down to balance

 

[mje1980]

I just finished a 10 min APA, in which i did NOT adjust hop calcs for no chil. The keg did not last too long . I think its a good idea to keep it simple first up. If you think its too harsh, next batch, adjust the hop calcs a little, and so on etc.

Since i started no chilling ( 18 months at least? ) i have not noticed any of the beers being any more bitter, and no one has tasted them and screwed their face up hehe.

 

[big78sam]

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.

Consider the following:
- Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
- Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
- If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort
- There will be less convection in a cube of wort than in a boiling kettle which will also reduce isomerisation

Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?

If you start doing silly things like adding hops to the hot cube then all bets are off though...

Calculations in any brewing software are only a guide anyway based on a variety of approximations. Your best bet is to brew the beer as is and calibrate yourself against a commercial sample (with a published IBU figure) for reference. Then make any adjustments to your process if necessary to suit your taste.

[1] http://ift.confex.com/ift/2004/techprogram/paper_25787.htm

Waits for Thirstyboy to respond....

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...55867&st=20

EDIT: linky

 

[manticle]

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.

Not quite as scientific but I currently have a house APA which relies a lot on late hopping cold conditioning in 2 cubes. One cube chilled, the other no chilled, split batch. I won't be getting the IBU tested but I will be doing some side by sides and getting other tongues to taste. Mainly for my own curiosity in regards to bitterness, flavour and aroma in NC hoppy beers.

I no chill every batch currently and am happy with the results. I struggle to believe it will add 26 IBU but who knows?

Essentially the IBU numbers are theoretical unless you get them measured and if you brew beer that you are happy with and know your system and methods then I think that's the most important thing.

 

[mxd]

I currently have a house APA which relies a lot on late hopping

If that is the house APA I tried that was bewdiful, be interested to see the results. There was a similar test down by a couple of brewers and I don't think the results were conclusive enough.

 

[manticle]

You've tried the NC version. Glad you liked it.

 

[Maple]

If that is the house APA I tried that was bewdiful, be interested to see the results. There was a similar test down by a couple of brewers and I don't think the results were conclusive enough.

Whatchutalkingbout Willis? Those results were plenty conclusive.

 

[mxd]

Whatchutalkingbout Willis? Those results were plenty conclusive.

I wasn't there it was just hear say and blame a person who's first name is very similar to my last name

I got the impression the beers tasted so different you couldn't put it down to the chill / no chill ?

 

[ekul]

I do believe that nochilling does increase the bittering, especially with pellets. I do a beer that is calculated as having 6ibus when nochilling isn't applied, howeveer when i add 15mins to all my additions it comes out at 18. This beer has def more bitter than 6ibus. It has galaxy at the tale end which is a pretty bitter hop, and it is a very delicate procedure to give my beer flavour without making it crazy bitter.

When using flowers I calculate flameout and cube hops as a 10min addition, when using pellets i calculate this as a 15min addition. I have done a few experiments with predominately cube hopping, i wasn't real impressed by it but it did show me the difference between pellets and flowers in the cube.


Kayne- You could read about Argons method of post-cube hop additions. Basically when he makes the beer he doesn't add any of the later hops. When the cube is coool he chucks it in the fridge and gets it down to 4C. Then he removes a few litres, boils his late addition of hops and then adds this and the 4C wort into the fermenter, bringing the temp up to 18C. Its a good thread and i've been meaning to try it.

Or you could try a beer that only has a bittering additions, like andrewQLD's coopers pale ale.