No Chill Divide And Conquer

[Cocko]

IMO, if it is cooling fast enough to limit isomerisation then it possibly isn't staying hot long enough to get the antibacterial(?) heat treatment that is desirable in the method.

So how long at what temp IS ok to cube with? If the wort is going in at near 100* than how long does it need to play the critical part of sterilising the cube?

I would assume a minute if not seconds... a truly, un educated opinion on that but maybe some one knows?

Maybe 4x 5L cubes is the future.

Good work BG.

 

[Guysmiley54]

I would assume a minute if not seconds... a truly, un educated opinion on that but maybe some one knows?

That was my understanding too Cocko. It's a time vs temp thing, at temps over 85C I would think it would happen very quickly. I very carefully clean and sanitise my cubes and only store them for a maximum of 24-36 hours before pitching anyway...

 

[bum]

I would assume a minute if not seconds... a truly, un educated opinion on that but maybe some one knows?

I call "bullshit" on this (and also on cubing at 100degC but if you like hot break then go for it). Guy's 15 minutes seems closer to the mark (my memory of generalised information puts the average figure quoted somewhere between 20 and 30 min). If people generally suggest that cubing "adds" 10 to 20 minutes to the bitterness calculations (my personal experience leads me to accept that it does) then 15 to 30 minutes at "useful" temperatures (in terms of sterilising/sanitising) will certainly have a noticeable effect on the bitterness.


Sorry, everyone. No-one else can use any punctuation today. I've used it all up.

...and no change was noticed by anyone anywhere.

 

[Cocko]

I call "bullshit" on this (and also on cubing at 100degC but if you like hot break then go for it). Guy's 15 minutes seems closer to the mark (my memory of generalised information puts the average figure quoted somewhere between 20 and 30 min). If people generally suggest that cubing "adds" 10 to 20 minutes to the bitterness calculations (my personal experience leads me to accept that it does) then 15 to 30 minutes at "useful" temperatures (in terms of sterilising/sanitising) will certainly have a noticeable effect on the bitterness.


Sorry, everyone. No-one else can use any punctuation today. I've used it all up.

...and no change was noticed by anyone anywhere.

Ok, so sanitising with boiling water, you boil the kitchen kettle and then wash fermenter [or what ever] with it, it needs to be in contact with the surface for 15 minutes? Is that what you are saying?

15-30 minutes is referring to hops utulisation and it is argued that down to about 85* until it stops... we are talking the ability to let the 'hot' wort sanitise as it goes in the cube....

If you are right, we should be keeping our cubes as hot as we can for the first 15 minutes? :blink:

Sorry if I dont type real good like.

 

[Nick JD]

Ok, so sanitising with boiling water, you boil the kitchen kettle and the wash fermenter [or what ever] with it, it needs to be in contact with the surface for 15 minutes? Is that what you are saying?

15-30 minutes is referring to hops utulisation, and it is argued that down to about 85* until it stops... we are talking the ability to let the 'hot' wort sanitise as it goes in the cube....

If you are right, we should be keeping our cubes as hot as we can for the first 15 minutes? :blink:

Sorry if I dont type real good like.

You can kill nearly everything in a couple of minutes at 75C.

You cannot kill everthing at 100C for an hour.

In between these two is cubing. It's a craps shoot.

 

[bum]

Ok, so sanitising with boiling water, you boil the kitchen kettle and the wash fermenter [or what ever] with it, it needs to be in contact with the surface for 15 minutes? Is that what you are saying?

I guess I am saying two things. The first is that I assume most people do something about keeping hot break out of their cubes (primarily whirlpooling) so few people would be cubing near 100C. The second thing is that, yes, I am fairly confident that even at boiling temps sanitisation does not occur instantly.

If you are right, we should be keeping our cubes as hot as we can for the first 15 minutes? :blink:

Without being silly about it (i.e applying heat, etc), yeah, I think that is how the process is supposed to work (for those not pitching as soon as the temp is right).

As I've said before, I'm not the most scientifical brewer in the world and could easily have gotten something arse about.

Sorry if I dont type real good like.

Daawww. Look at you taking stuff all personal and shit! You know I don't mean you. Don't make me start apologising and that.

 

[Cocko]

You can kill nearly everything in a couple of minutes at 75C.

You cannot kill everthing at 100C for an hour.

In between these two is cubing. It's a craps shoot.

WTF? Do you have your 'cans' and 'cannots' mixed up?

I guess I am saying two things. The first is that I assume most people do something about keeping hot break out of their cubes (primarily whirlpooling) so few people would be cubing near 100C. The second thing is that, yes, I am fairly confident that even at boiling temps sanitisation does not occur instantly.

Ok 'near 100*' was a bad call but seriously, what would be an unsafe temp to cube at? I am sure the process of cubing would be sanitising the cube during filling down to about 92*... Any of you science nerds wanna wade in?

Without being silly about it (i.e applying heat, etc), yeah, I think that is how the process is supposed to work (for those not pitching as soon as the temp is right).

As I've said before, I'm not the most scientifical brewer in the world and could easily have gotten something arse about.

It would seem so.

Daawww. Look at you taking stuff all personal and shit! You know I don't mean you. Don't make me start apologising and that.

I get a little insecure at times.. its not you, its me.

 

[bum]

its not you, its me.

Duh. It is never me. You should know that by now.

 

[Nick JD]

WTF? Do you have your 'cans' and 'cannots' mixed up?

Google pasteurisation and sterilisation.

 

[Cocko]

Google pasteurisation and sterilisation.

Ok, did.

So we are dealing with pasteurisation when cubing..

Anything above 72* or so is still safe then?

 

[jyo]

Have a look at this link, mate- HERE There is some good ole chat about pasteurisation units (PU) on page two. It seems above 75 you are in great territory for reducing the risk of infection in a clean cube.














You hovered, didn't you?

 

[felten]

Hovering is SOP on this forum

 

[emnpaul]

If you started with a clean cube (and by clean I mean a good soak in nappy san, shake and rinse) then ran some Starsan through it to sanitise, wouldn't the wort temperature and rate of cooling be rendered irrelevant?

@ bum: It's a new day, punctuation is back on.

 

[Guysmiley54]

I guess sanitisation will not be a problem (especially for those with well prepared cubes).

I am still curious to see if there is a quicker drop-off of heat in a smaller cube leading to less isomerisation? Someone quoted 10min, but others claim they don't make any adjustments and can't tell the difference :blink:

 

[emnpaul]

Not sure to what extent hop utilisation will drop off, that would depend on the size of the cube, but there has to be a quicker drop in temperature in a smaller cube. Greater surface area:volume ratio = faster heat dissipation.

 

[Superoo]

Not sure to what extent hop utilisation will drop off, that would depend on the size of the cube, but there has to be a quicker drop in temperature in a smaller cube. Greater surface area:volume ratio = faster heat dissipation.

Theres another experiment...
1 x 10L cube filled an allowed to cool naturally. The other one chilled quickly in an ice bath.
Taste test might show some differences with isomerisation.

 

[Nick JD]

If you started with a clean cube (and by clean I mean a good soak in nappy san, shake and rinse) then ran some Starsan through it to sanitise, wouldn't the wort temperature and rate of cooling be rendered irrelevant?

The process of transfering (and time taken) would be an opportunity for dust to settle on a cool wort going into a sterile cube. A speck of dust is a cruise ship for micro organisms.

None of this stuff matters if you pitch 200 billion yeast cells in just after - but a week later a cube only needs a speck of dust to spoil it if the wort wasn't hot enough to fry it.

 

[going down a hill]

A speck of dust is a cruise ship for micro organisms.

Brewing poetry!