No Boil Hopping // Use Of A "cube" For Cooling

[Ronin]

I regularly dry hop my cube. I first throw the dry hops into the cube, and then pour in the near boiling wort from the kettle. My theory has been that the wort temp is hot enough to kill any nasties on the hops.

I thought it might.

Do you notice any differences between dry hopping before or after fermentation?

 

[stueywhytcross]

I thought it might.

Do you notice any differences between dry hopping before or after fermentation?

Yeah i treat the cube hop as more of a flavour addition 10min . I have adjusted all my recipes so that dry cube hop is the same as a 10min boil addition.
The dry cube hop is no substitute for a dry hop addition (during fermentation or after).

Ie dry hopping (30grams cascade aa 5%) into cube with hot wort from kettle will produce approximately the same as a 10min boil. (around 6 IBU) a lot of hop flavour and slight aromatic qualities.
dry hopping into fermentor will produce purely aromatic qualities with no added bitterness.

this is just my experiences and rough estimates and by no words gospel.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Thirsty Boy started a thread somewhere a while ago about not putting any hops into the kettle and adding them all to the cube. I think if you searched this site for 'Beat the Hop Shortage' you might find it, but I am too lazy to do it for you...

I brewed an American Brown on the weekend, where I added First Wort Hops as I pulled the bag out of the kettle and the rest of the hops went straight into the cube. If you were worried about the hops being an infection vector to your hot wort, you probably would not be no-chilling.

I have to say that regardless of how the beer turns out, I did not feel like I was brewing because there was no constant checking, throwing additions into kettle, fussing, etc. I went and did something else for an hour or so then dumped the thing into a cube...

But, No-Chill, BIAB is a great way to make beer.

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks for the answers so far!

.................but in any case, I might use a small pulley arrangement from an overhead board to hang the bag above the kettle to drain it fully so I won't have to hold it up with my arms.

Dont worry about that flimsy looking string wrapped round the spar, it's nylon Bricklayer's line and could take the head off a bull if you used it as a lassoo

Re earlier post about bitterness, my Yorkshire Bitter has dropped bright and although it needs more carbonation it's ready to drink so I poured a pint or two or three (see my post in What's in the Glass).
It's a nice smooth drop but compared to the earlier Yorkshire it's far less hoppy.

Because I'm no chilling, I cut back the 60 minute bittering hops from 45 grams to 30, and delayed the 20 min addition to 10 min, the 10 min to flameout, and did a dry hop after 4 days in primary.

Bad move, I much preferred the hops in the original brew. Well that's decided the issue for myself at any rate. Am now in the Butters Camp and won't adjust hops for no chill any more. :icon_cheers:

note: it's going into a comp, I'm entering it as a Best Bitter and according to the guide the malt should predominate without any blatant hop overtones, so I've inadvertently lucked out on this occasion :lol:

 

[buttersd70]

according to the guide the malt should predominate without any blatant hop overtones

told you so, told you so, ner ner na ner ner..... :lol:

 

[hoppinmad]

A little off topic here, but just to give you a tip on where to get your 20 litre no-chill cubes really cheap.... medical supply stores. They buy all their distilled water in these cubes and to make some cash back on the water sell the containers.

I got mine for $4 each with tap and all! They had piles of them for sale too!

 

[Bribie G]

A little off topic here, but just to give you a tip on where to get your 20 litre no-chill cubes really cheap.... medical supply stores. They buy all their distilled water in these cubes and to make some cash back on the water sell the containers.

I got mine for $4 each with tap and all! They had piles of them for sale too!

WOW... What do you mean by "medical supply stores"... examples?? At that price I could have whole arrays of cubes on the go... have a brew week in Heaven and end up with twenty cubes of wort in stock.... and probably end up losing ten kilos and get divorced...the mind absolutely boggles.

Off topic the malt characteristic of this Yorkshire is certainly predominating, I've had three pints and the rough corners of my life have been well and truly smoothed already and it's only 4.45 QLD time ... :icon_cheers:

 

[hoppinmad]

WOW... What do you mean by "medical supply stores"... examples?? At that price I could have whole arrays of cubes on the go... have a brew week in Heaven and end up with twenty cubes of wort in stock.... and probably end up losing ten kilos and get divorced...the mind absolutely boggles.

By medical supply store i mean a store that sells medical supplies :lol: I was tempted to get a bunch of them too actually but resisted the urge.

I got mine from Geelong Medical Supplies Geelong Medical Supplies ... I'm sure most cities with a hospital would have at least one supplier

 

[Bribie G]

See what you mean... I never thought about it, in hospitals you always assume the rubber gloves, sanitary requirements, bandages, speculums (specula) kidney dishes, syringes.... just materialise out of thin air and mysteriously stock the shelves with themselves...

My eyes have been opened B)

 

[rich_lamb]

I found the first beer I did no-chill, where ALL the hops/trub went in the cube was pretty much ruined - excessively harsh and bitter. Turned out to be quite unstable over time too, was marked down quite heavily at competition, even though high bitterness was in style.

Since I started filtering out the trub the problem is solved. Everyone has different techniques so we all notice different things - it seems dumping all the hop residue in the cube is actually not the norm ?

I don't often use aroma additions, but when I need to I think I'll try the coffee-plunger method (from memory that was posted by Thirsty).

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Since I started filtering out the trub the problem is solved. Everyone has different techniques so we all notice different things - it seems dumping all the hop residue in the cube is actually not the norm ?

I don't often use aroma additions, but when I need to I think I'll try the coffee-plunger method (from memory that was posted by Thirsty).

It was TB.

Normally, I keep (virtually) all the hop and hot break out of the cube and only have a tiny amount in the cube to reserve when I pour it into the fermenter. Doing it any other way means you lose a fair bit to the cube, probably instead of to the kettle, but I think it results in a muddier flavour beer at the end.

I think that every transfer should result in yerck left behind.

 

[PostModern]

Either way I'd be a bit unsure of putting hops directly into unfermented wort. Without the antibacterial properties of the alcohol, I think it'd be asking for trouble.

Edit: Although upon further consideration, as long as you were careful with your sanitation, the hot wort should pasteruise the hop pellets/flowers just as if it was the plastic. I don't know if anyones every added hops directly to a cube before fermentation. Anyone?

I've "cube-hopped" but I didn't find much difference from the whirlpool addition, so I don't bother now.

Thirsty Boy started a thread somewhere a while ago about not putting any hops into the kettle and adding them all to the cube. I think if you searched this site for 'Beat the Hop Shortage' you might find it, but I am too lazy to do it for you...

Yeah, it's linked in my post on page 1 of this thread. Fark, doesn't anyone read before they post these days

 

[Bribie G]

I always get crystal clear wort into the cube because of:

• I use whirlfloc in the boil and let it sit for 20 minutes before draining. (whirlfolc = irish moss in a tablet form)
• I use a hopsock even if using pellets. I once thought "nah, just put the pellets into the kettle and don't worry about the hopsock" and ended up with heaps of green goop in the cube.

Ya lives and learns

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I supplied a lot of the information for that BYO article, so I suppose its my fault if there is a bit of confusion.

Mind you there is also bit of not reading of other people's posts, including the OP's

t2000kw -

You are getting some mixed reactions because you are actually mixing three different things that were mentioned in the article up into one big pile.

BIAB - is just a method for making wort. It has nothing to do with no-chill. You can chill (or not) any old way you want. BIAB stops being different to "normal" brewing when your kettle is at the point of pre-boil.

No-Chilling - is an alternative to using any of the rapid chill techniques like ice baths, plate chillers, immersion chillers etc etc. It has nothing to do with BIAB. You can make your wort any way you like - its all about the chilling. In fact, the vast majority of people who no-chill, don't brew BIAB style at all.

Putting Hops in the No-Chill Cube - Is something you can do if you no-chill. Its just a technique for adding hops at a different point. In most cases you would still add your bittering/flavour/aroma hops to the kettle, whirpool and rack clear wort to the no-chill cube. The bit about No-Boil hopping in BYO (their term, that I wasn't overjoyed about...) is a result of the fact that some people like to put some hops into the cube as well - This traps all the flavour and aroma of the hops inside the cube and also adds some bitterness. Its kind of like a cross between a hopback and first wort hopping. Its not better or worse than adding hops the traditional way... its just a little different. Its obvious that if you add enough hops to the cube, it can really impact on the final bitterness of the beer and you need to plan for that. I have done a few experiments (along with some other people) and at the moment, it seems that hops added to the cube will give you a similar sort of bitterness to hops added to the boil somewhere in the 10-15mins from the end range. An experimental technique is to try this..... If you add enough hops to the cube - you get all their flavour and aroma and enough bitterness that you don't need to add any hops to the boil at all.

You don't have to put any hops in the cube - you can add most to the boil and some to the cube - you can try adding them all to the cube and none to the boil (I made my last beer that way... its a bit less bitter than I want but the flavour and aroma are fantastic) or any other combination you can think of. No-Chill itself is a very very well tried and tested technique here in Australia. People mucking about with various additions of hops; is just that... people mucking about.

Try em out. You have the gear already (your 10G kettle is just nice for a normal gravity 5G batch of BIAB) the Bag will cost you a few dollars and convincing someone to sew it up for you - a No-Chill cube is cheap or free - adding more hops in another place shouldn't be a problem for an American surely?? All three or any combination of the techniques.

Have fun

Thirsty

(oh and after having a chip about not reading other peoples posts... I am aware that I repeated information already mentioned )

 

[t2000kw]

It was TB.

Normally, I keep (virtually) all the hop and hot break out of the cube and only have a tiny amount in the cube to reserve when I pour it into the fermenter. Doing it any other way means you lose a fair bit to the cube, probably instead of to the kettle, but I think it results in a muddier flavour beer at the end.

I think that every transfer should result in yerck left behind.

Maybe it's the wort being a higher temperature (in the cube) with the trub and cold break in it that causes some brewers to find it has a muddy taste, but when I use a chiller, I dump the whole pot into a fermenter, minus the hops, which are filtered out by a colander, and the trub is in with the beer for the entire primary part of fermentation. In my case, that sometimes a long time (a few weeks) until I can get back to it to either rack or bottle the beer.

No off flavors because of the trub, and some feel that the trub provides nourishment for the yeast.

Do you think it's the higher temperature that does something to the trub and cold break?

 

[t2000kw]

I always get crystal clear wort into the cube because of:

• I use whirlfloc in the boil and let it sit for 20 minutes before draining. (whirlfolc = irish moss in a tablet form)
• I use a hopsock even if using pellets. I once thought "nah, just put the pellets into the kettle and don't worry about the hopsock" and ended up with heaps of green goop in the cube.

Ya lives and learns

I use whirlfloc also, but I've never let the brew sit after boiling for more than a minute or two before cooling it down quickly with an immersion chiller. I realize that the whirlfloc will help drop suspended particles to the bottom, but are these harmful, or just something that will initially cloud the wort and then drop back out after it settles?

My brews are still crystal clear in most cases (except perhaps for beers with wheat malt in them) after doing this.

I do strain out the whole hops when I use my own home-grown ones. I've never strained out the pellets, but since I rapid cool the wort (I would like to try the no-chill method soon, though), any affect on bittering is probably nil.

I didn't know that a hop sock would filter out the tiny particles from the hop pellets, but I can't say I ever tried it, either. If I use a cube, I guess I'll have to change some other practices of mine.

Donald

 

[t2000kw]

I supplied a lot of the information for that BYO article, so I suppose its my fault if there is a bit of confusion.

Mind you there is also bit of not reading of other people's posts, including the OP's

t2000kw -

You are getting some mixed reactions because you are actually mixing three different things that were mentioned in the article up into one big pile . . .

I didn't realize the confusion I might be causing. However, this is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread!

. . . Putting Hops in the No-Chill Cube - Is something you can do if you no-chill. Its just a technique for adding hops at a different point. In most cases you would still add your bittering/flavour/aroma hops to the kettle, whirpool and rack clear wort to the no-chill cube. The bit about No-Boil hopping in BYO (their term, that I wasn't overjoyed about...) is a result of the fact that some people like to put some hops into the cube as well - This traps all the flavour and aroma of the hops inside the cube and also adds some bitterness . . .

It seems that some here feel I should let the wort sit a while before racking to a cube instead of just pouring it into the cube right after flame-out. Is that the norm, or is that just a preference? It would leave some of the hot break material behind.

It seems that the BYO article caused some confusion with the term "no-boil hopping." I would think that it would be great for dry hopping, and adjust the bittering hops just a tad to make up for some bitterness added by the flavor and/or aroma hops added to the cube.

. . . You don't have to put any hops in the cube - you can add most to the boil and some to the cube - you can try adding them all to the cube and none to the boil (I made my last beer that way... its a bit less bitter than I want but the flavour and aroma are fantastic) or any other combination you can think of. No-Chill itself is a very very well tried and tested technique here in Australia. People mucking about with various additions of hops; is just that... people mucking about . . .

I might just add the bittering hops to the boil in my first attempt at this and the aroma/flavoring hops to the cube as a starting point.

. . . Try em out. You have the gear already (your 10G kettle is just nice for a normal gravity 5G batch of BIAB) the Bag will cost you a few dollars and convincing someone to sew it up for you - a No-Chill cube is cheap or free - adding more hops in another place shouldn't be a problem for an American surely?? All three or any combination of the techniques.

I can sew one up myself. I'm not a tailor, but we have a nice sewing machine and I've done a little sewing myself. If I mess it up I can use a seam ripper and have my wife do it for me. She learned from her mom who was a seamstress who learned from a master tailor. I just need to find the appropriate material that will hold up to boiling wort.

As for adding hops in a different schedule (or to the cube), it's not a problem for this American anyway. I like experimentation (within certain boundaries), and learning from other cultures. There's a lot we can "borrow" from other cultures if we're open minded enough to consider them. By no means am I one to think that the "American" way is the best way (or worse, the "only" way) of doing things. It's just one way among many ways of doing things. I was only born here, and while I like where I live, it's just one of many places to live, if you know what I mean. (There are places I'd prefer not to live, of course.) But I'm not the typical Yank, so I can't speak for others here. :beer:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

It seems that some here feel I should let the wort sit a while before racking to a cube instead of just pouring it into the cube right after flame-out. Is that the norm, or is that just a preference? It would leave some of the hot break material behind.

Its probably the most popular way to do it - but there are enough variations in how people no-chill that you would have to say it was a preference. Its like gettign hot break into your fermentor - some people do it happily, other people go to great lengths to transfer only clear wort.

My interpretation is this - You are leaving things hot for a lot longer, that cube takes hours and hours to coll down to even comfortable touching teritory - Most breweries get rid of hot break beasue it can add off flavours to a beer - and if you are engaging in a non-normal practise like no-chilling, its better to play it safe and keep out kette trub in the first place - but I know for certain that other people do it differently and report good results

Some people also leave behind the cold break that forms in the cube - but thats going too far for me - I put clear wort into the cube along with hops in a hop sack, but after that I dump in everything except for the hop sock - dry hopping happens later with new hops, you dont want them to have been exposed to the heat

It seems that the BYO article caused some confusion with the term "no-boil hopping." I would think that it would be great for dry hopping, and adjust the bittering hops just a tad to make up for some bitterness added by the flavor and/or aroma hops added to the cube.

I might just add the bittering hops to the boil in my first attempt at this and the aroma/flavoring hops to the cube as a starting point.
seems like a sensible plan to me

I can sew one up myself. I'm not a tailor, but we have a nice sewing machine and I've done a little sewing myself. If I mess it up I can use a seam ripper and have my wife do it for me. She learned from her mom who was a seamstress who learned from a master tailor. I just need to find the appropriate material that will hold up to boiling wort.
The standard material is a curtain sheer called Swiss Voile - a very fine mesh made from 100% polyester. Strong, food grade and heat proof. The fabric store people will probably look at you as though you asked for cheese.... but I bet they have it anyway, or something similar. A fine mesh, think about the metal filter screen in a french press coffee maker, about that fine - and needs to be 100% polyester or maybe nylon so its strong at the temperature

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Maybe it's the wort being a higher temperature (in the cube) with the trub and cold break in it that causes some brewers to find it has a muddy taste, but when I use a chiller, I dump the whole pot into a fermenter, minus the hops, which are filtered out by a colander, and the trub is in with the beer for the entire primary part of fermentation. In my case, that sometimes a long time (a few weeks) until I can get back to it to either rack or bottle the beer.

No off flavors because of the trub, and some feel that the trub provides nourishment for the yeast.

Do you think it's the higher temperature that does something to the trub and cold break?

I don't mind getting cold break into my fermenter - some say it provides nutrient for yeasts and that can only be good.

I cannot say why it is the way it is, but from experience I think that removing the cooked hop matter and hot break before introducing yeasts results in better beer. Call me Pavlovian. Although, as I write this, I realise that with BIAB (which is essentially my sole wort-preparation technique) a lot more grain material finds its way into the finished wort than from a multi-vessel system and *that* might help contribute the dreaded Off Flavours, particularly when it is sitting in the cube for hours on end with nothing better to do than dissolve into your beer...

 

[Ronin]

It seems that some here feel I should let the wort sit a while before racking to a cube instead of just pouring it into the cube right after flame-out. Is that the norm, or is that just a preference? It would leave some of the hot break material behind.

That's what I do. At flame out, I whirlpool, let it sit for a few minutes until I can't see the large break material spinning in the kettle, then drain to the cube. The couple of degree drop in temperature of the wort doesn't make a difference to the pasteurisation of the cube. Haven't had an infection yet (fingers crossed). I find this leaves most of the hot break behind.