Nizmoose makes the AG leap

[Nizmoose]

Okay so after about five months of brewing I've decided I'm ready to make the jump to all-grain. I figured I'd make this thread as I'm bound to have some questions over the next few days and I'd rather keep it in one place and chronological order. Firstly I want to say a big thanks to everyone on this forum for all the advice and information. Without the people on this forum I'm sure I'd still be frustratingly messing up extract beers 21L at a time and so cheers to anyone who has answered some of my questions both directly or indirectly.

My first beer by myself was an extract APA with cascade and crystal and I think its the best of my 5 beers made so far. I started this hobby thinking "awesome, cheap beer!" and have quickly discovered 1: How un-true that is and 2- how much more this hobby is. I am a 21 year old uni student and all of my friends (including me six months ago) had no problems chugging down a corona, or more to the point, thinking it was the best in the business. So thanks to everyone here for opening my eyes to real beer! Anyway enough of that heres what I plan to do for my first batch, my equipment, recipe and mash schedule:

After a few months of gathering equipment my last bit (BIAB bag) arrived Friday and my first brew will be Saturday in a weeks time.

My setup is an extremely simple (and tiny) BIAB set-up using a Big W 19L pot and a three ring burner.

I am only making 10L batches at the moment with the odd 21L batch here and there for a few reasons. Firstly I don't drink a whole heap of beer and thus making 21L of one beer style or recipe is a bit unnecessary, I also really enjoy the brewing process and figure I'd rather brew more often and brew more styles than I would normally be able to. Also my 30L fermenter makes a great bottling bucket for my 10L batches and the 10L fermenter is cheap (water container) and easy to move.

So here is what I'm pretty much set on for my recipe, Its basically an AG version of my first ever batch of beer, I thought it would be cool to do an AG version of a beer I've already done and one that I really liked:

Recipe:
Volume into Fermenter: 10L
Grain:
- 2kg Traditional Ale Malt (88.9%)
- 100g Crystal 150 EBC (4.4%)
- 150g Dextrose (6.7%)
Yeast: Second generation US-05 (using a starter)
Hop Schedule:
- 9g Centennial 9.4% AA @ 60 minutes
- 10g Cascade 7% AA @ 5 minutes

Predicted Vital Statistics:
OG: 1.051
FG: 1.012
IBU: 25
ABV: 5%

Mash Schedule: EDIT: Full volume into kettle at start
55C for 5 minutes (thickness: 2L/kg)
66C for 70 minutes (using a combination of infusion and burner flame to 3.5-4L/kg)
EDIT: forgot a 72C rest for 10 minutes
78C for 10 minutes infusion up to boil volume any extra heat need coming from burner flame to heat up.

So this is what it is looking like at the moment. I realise how light the hopping looks to most of you guys but I'm going for something my family will enjoy and therefore something with enough hop aroma to make me happy and to still be light and refreshing for the megaswill drinkers.

Now a few questions I'm having initially:
I've read as much as I can find on Mash thicknesses and will continue to do so this week but just wondering if mashing in thick (which is what I've read favours the low temp enzymes) and then using infusions to step up with a combination of heating from the burner is acceptable? I'm basically going to be adding just boiled water from the kettle (85ish C water) to my desired thickness for my Sacharification rest then whatever amount gets me to my pre-boil volume (plus loss to grain absorption) for the ramp up to the mash-out step. I'm almost 100% sure the infusions planned wont quite get me to the desired step temps so is a little heat from the burner a good way to make up these few degrees?

Also how do people do BIAB infusions? The thing I don't get is how adding a portion of really hot water to the mash doesn't denature at least some enzymes and hurt the mashing process. Do people take the bag out, add the infusion water then mix it before putting the bag back in or just chuck in in the bag and stir? EDIT: may not worry about infusions, keep it simple for first batch me thinks.

Lastly do I need to keep the bag off of the pot bottom while mashing? I'm happy to keep it off the bottom while the burner is on between steps but I'm assuming it'll be fine to let it drop to the bottom during the mash whilst the burner is off?

Thanks in advance to anyone answering my questions and hopefully by Saturday I'll have a happy story to share!

 

[manticle]

Infusing/heating to step is fine.
Denaturing is not an instant thing - it is a function of time and temp and other things like pH. You will probably denature some enzymes quite quickly if you infuse with boiling water but if you use quality modified malt (pretty much any commercially available base malt) there will be plenty to do the job.
Keep the bag off the bottom if you can, yes.

Good job on the brew. Hope it turns out well.

 

[doon]

Pretty sure biab is designed for full volume mashing not doing infusions. If you want to step mash raise the bag turn on burner and mix mash until you reach desired temp. Turn off burner until next step

 

[manticle]

No reason you can't infuse with biab if that works.

 

[Nizmoose]

Pretty sure biab is designed for full volume mashing not doing infusions. If you want to step mash raise the bag turn on burner and mix mash until you reach desired temp. Turn off burner until next step

Yeah I was thinking about this and considering its my first AG I think Im going to switch up the schedule so that I chuck all my water in at the start and not worry about thickness

 

[Nizmoose]

Infusing/heating to step is fine.
Denaturing is not an instant thing - it is a function of time and temp and other things like pH. You will probably denature some enzymes quite quickly if you infuse with boiling water but if you use quality modified malt (pretty much any commercially available base malt) there will be plenty to do the job.
Keep the bag off the bottom if you can, yes.

Good job on the brew. Hope it turns out well.

Thanks manticle I hadn't actually really considered the bag on the bottom as an issue till today, might have to have a dig in the old threads of people making stands or something

 

[verysupple]

One benefit of BIAB when doing larger batches is that you can mash in with the full volume and not worry. But with you're setup it might be a pain to hold the bag up while heating (it's a bit small to be bothered with pulleys etc) so infusions might suit you better. Both ways work. Just choose which ever suits you best.

Denaturing is not an instant thing - it is a function of time and temp and other things like pH. You will probably denature some enzymes quite quickly if you infuse with boiling water but if you use quality modified malt (pretty much any commercially available base malt) there will be plenty to do the job.

Manticle is right. If you go the infusion route, pour in the hot water, stir, and overall the temp won't be too high for long enough to matter.

 

[Nizmoose]

One benefit of BIAB when doing larger batches is that you can mash in with the full volume and not worry. But with you're setup it might be a pain to hold the bag up while heating (it's a bit small to be bothered with pulleys etc) so infusions might suit you better. Both ways work. Just choose which ever suits you best.


Manticle is right. If you go the infusion route, pour in the hot water, stir, and overall the temp won't be too high for long enough to matter.

Cheers, I might still go the infusion route not sure, might do a run with plain water to see how much my small planned infusions will do, if it's not much and I'll have to turn the burner on at all I'll probably just do all burner for this first batch we shall see! Thanks for advice

 

[SNippets01]

BIABrewer here, I do 23L batches but find that when you raise the temp, I would flame out 1 or 2 degrees lower than your target temp as the heat tends to keep rising for a bit (although I use a small digital thermometer with a short probe at the top surface).

I would also recommending a lower mash temp, instead of 66, maybe aim for 64-65, to keep it to a light-body profile. I've found with my repeat beer recipe that doing at 66 ends up being not as high SG and definitely more 'perceived' sweetness after ferment.

Step mashing is fine, just stir the mix while flame is on and you will be fine, that's what I've done many times. But if you don't want to complicate your first batch, just do the main mash step, plus mash-out and it will still be OK.

I also recommend writing down as much as you can (just use your recipe printout), volumes, gravity and temperature readings all throughtout the process will help troubleshoot any issues that you encounter later.

 

[Nizmoose]

BIABrewer here, I do 23L batches but find that when you raise the temp, I would flame out 1 or 2 degrees lower than your target temp as the heat tends to keep rising for a bit (although I use a small digital thermometer with a short probe at the top surface).
I would also recommending a lower mash temp, instead of 66, maybe aim for 64-65, to keep it to a light-body profile. I've found with my repeat beer recipe that doing at 66 ends up being not as high SG and definitely more 'perceived' sweetness after ferment.

Step mashing is fine, just stir the mix while flame is on and you will be fine, that's what I've done many times. But if you don't want to complicate your first batch, just do the main mash step, plus mash-out and it will still be OK.

I also recommend writing down as much as you can (just use your recipe printout), volumes, gravity and temperature readings all throughtout the process will help troubleshoot any issues that you encounter later.

Thanks Snippets some good advice in here. I do have a list of thngs I'm making sure I write down so I can see if I hit targets so pretty keen to see how close I can get. Also thanks for the mash temp advice I might aim for 64 and that way if I overdo it a bit with the flame its all good. And I was going to ask about the delay for heating via a flame so thanks for mentioning that! So basically you heat and stir until 2 degrees below the step temp then kill the gas? And I have been fluffing around trying to get a false bottom or something like a strainer to hold the bag off the bottom can I just lift it and stir the water beneath whilst the heat is on then lower it after it is off and stir for a bit?

EDIT: Forgot to write down what I'm measuring during the day (tell me if I'm missing something)
Temperatures
Start of mash
Middle of each step
end of mash

Gravity
Pre-boil
Post boil

Volume
'Strike water' (pre mash)
post mash (grain removed) / pre- boil
Post boil
Into fermenter

This should give me the numbers I need to dial in my system to a degree I THINK

 

[schtev]

And I have been fluffing around trying to get a false bottom or something like a strainer to hold the bag off the bottom can I just lift it and stir the water beneath whilst the heat is on then lower it after it is off and stir for a bit?

Definitely, this will work

 

[dicko]

Hi Nizmoose,

Congrats on taking the plunge to AG.

Do you have brew software?

Beersmith is a reasonable program and it has a function that will calculate infusion volumes and temps if you want to go down the infusion path.

If I may suggest that until you are familiar with your equipment with heating times etc that you may just stick to a single temp mash say at 65 66 deg to simplify your brew day.
Once you know how quick your burner will heat the mash etc then go down the stepped mash road.

Only my suggestion though, so whatever you do, enjoy your brewing.

 

[philmud]

Also, Craftbrewer sell cheap Brewsmith licenses. I have the app too, and it's easy enough to pop recipes in the cloud so you can access on both versions.

 

[SNippets01]

So basically you heat and stir until 2 degrees below the step temp then kill the gas? - For stepping up the temperature for your mash-out, yes. BUT if you are heating the water up for the first time (before grains are put in, you will need to have the water higher temp than the mash temp (this is called strike water temp). I usually have 2 deg over with my set up and this depends on the amount and the temperature of the grains and the volume of water.

And I have been fluffing around trying to get a false bottom or something like a strainer to hold the bag off the bottom can I just lift it and stir the water beneath whilst the heat is on then lower it after it is off and stir for a bit? - I don't use a false bottom, when heating the grains/mash up I just stir the mix with a long handled spoon constantly. Feel free to lift the bag or get a false bottom - whatever works for you.

EDIT: Forgot to write down what I'm measuring during the day (tell me if I'm missing something)
Temperatures
Strike water temp
Start of mash
Middle of each step - personally i don't do this, but is good information. remember to give the mix a good stir before taking some liquid as it may give you a false SG reading.
end of mash

Gravity
Pre-boil
Post boil

Volume
'Strike water' (pre mash)
post mash (grain removed) / pre- boil
Post boil
Into fermenter

This should give me the numbers I need to dial in my system to a degree I THINK - Definitely!

I've added my comments above in RED.

 

[technobabble66]

Big ups on the new shizzle, Nizzle!

I think you've already been told all the good/relevant advice I can think of. My only suggestion is to take a *few* readings during each mash step (as per your "middle" reading), or at least the main big one, to get an estimate of the rate of heat loss in your setup. This is mainly just to see if you need more insulation, or halfway thru an hour long rest you might hit it with a little flame to crank it back up a degree or two.
Might be worth monitoring the temp drop after flameout - to see how quickly you approach 80*c during the stand/whirlpool step. It *may* help with IBU calculations later.

And take photos!!

 

[Nizmoose]

Hi Nizmoose,

Congrats on taking the plunge to AG.

Do you have brew software?

Beersmith is a reasonable program and it has a function that will calculate infusion volumes and temps if you want to go down the infusion path.

If I may suggest that until you are familiar with your equipment with heating times etc that you may just stick to a single temp mash say at 65 66 deg to simplify your brew day.
Once you know how quick your burner will heat the mash etc then go down the stepped mash road.

Only my suggestion though, so whatever you do, enjoy your brewing.

Hi Dicko and thanks!
I do have various software all of which I put one recipe in and compare them to see how different they turn out. I currently use beersmith, brewmate, Ian's Spreadsheet (stands up against the pro software well done Ian) and find beersmith is always predicting a couple IBU's higher than other software using the same formula but either way pretty sure I'm covered software wise and your mention about keeping it one step is something I've been thinking about a fair bit the last few days! Depending on how intimidated I get starting the mash and how well it hold temp and how controllable the temp is will probably decide which way I go haha.

Also, Craftbrewer sell cheap Brewsmith licenses. I have the app too, and it's easy enough to pop recipes in the cloud so you can access on both versions.

Yeah I use the app at the moment and find it really useful, it is lacking a few things from the bigger version but hopefully after a few updates its pretty well perfect. I would almost say I like making recipes more than drinking them haha so on the bus to uni and back I'm usually on this playing around, very convenient.

I've added my comments above in RED.

Thanks for this! I do know about the loss of heat to the grains so have that covered thanks though good advice and also I'll probably look into a false bottom eventually but with a 2.1kg grain bill I should manage

Big ups on the new shizzle, Nizzle!

I think you've already been told all the good/relevant advice I can think of. My only suggestion is to take a *few* readings during each mash step (as per your "middle" reading), or at least the main big one, to get an estimate of the rate of heat loss in your setup. This is mainly just to see if you need more insulation, or halfway thru an hour long rest you might hit it with a little flame to crank it back up a degree or two.
Might be worth monitoring the temp drop after flameout - to see how quickly you approach 80*c during the stand/whirlpool step. It *may* help with IBU calculations later.

And take photos!!

Cheers! Yeah I'm sure I'll probably be taking a few readings and imagine my first set-up will not be as well insulated as future ones. My kettle is thin and it'll probably only have towels as insulation but at a worst case scenario I will have a flame to fall back on if needed.
What exactly do you mean by the temp drop after flameout?
And yes many photos will be taken!

 

[technobabble66]

Re: temp drop. While the wort is above 80*c, the hops continue to extract/convert bitterness. This is optimized at 100*c and drops of significantly as the temp drops down to 80*c. So if you do a 20 min stand after flameout then a 20 min whirlpool then you could be adding either a few or a lot of IBUs depending on how long your wort spent closer to 100*c, and whether you did a lot of late hopping.
Hence it *might* be worthwhile knowing how long your wort spends near 100*C to determine whether you need to, or rather how to, estimate the post-flameout IBUs.
Otoh, I believe some recipes out there already account for this stand and whirlpool (eg: DSGA I think), so it's up to you whether you wish to be that precise in your repeatability, I s'pose.
Just a suggestion. Obviously many people brew great beers without measuring this, they just get a feel for it over a few brews.

 

[dicko]

Without dragging this too much off topic, you can adjust the bitterness in Beersmith but I am not sure whether you can do it on the App version.

Tools....Options.....Bitterness..... then change the percentages to what you may believe is a closer figure.

If you are "no chilling" you may want to have a read of some info on this forum re no chill hop additions.

Cheers

 

[Nizmoose]

Re: temp drop. While the wort is above 80*c, the hops continue to extract/convert bitterness. This is optimized at 100*c and drops of significantly as the temp drops down to 80*c. So if you do a 20 min stand after flameout then a 20 min whirlpool then you could be adding either a few or a lot of IBUs depending on how long your wort spent closer to 100*c, and whether you did a lot of late hopping.
Hence it *might* be worthwhile knowing how long your wort spends near 100*C to determine whether you need to, or rather how to, estimate the post-flameout IBUs.
Otoh, I believe some recipes out there already account for this stand and whirlpool (eg: DSGA I think), so it's up to you whether you wish to be that precise in your repeatability, I s'pose.
Just a suggestion. Obviously many people brew great beers without measuring this, they just get a feel for it over a few brews.

Wow I did not know this was a thing but it makes complete sense and I'm surprised I haven't come across it before thanks! If I am whirlpooling and standing can I get it in the ice bath ASAP in order to reduce the time spent above 80C? The way I've been doing it so far is to get it in the ice batch pretty much as soon as I can and then stirring it to create a whirlpool which I haven't really / dont really make full use of because I end up pouring almost all of it through a really tight strainer which keeps trub away.

 

[Nizmoose]

Without dragging this too much off topic, you can adjust the bitterness in Beersmith but I am not sure whether you can do it on the App version.

Tools....Options.....Bitterness..... then change the percentages to what you may believe is a closer figure.

If you are "no chilling" you may want to have a read of some info on this forum re no chill hop additions.

Cheers

Ahhh k cool thats useful I might look into that. And dw about off-topicness haha I figured this could be a thread that goes off on tangents here and there for the sake of learning. I don't no chill so no worries there. On that topic if the general consensus is that chilling quickly is vital in order to reduce haze how do you no chillers get clear beer? Extra effort (gelatine, irish moss etc?) or just couldnt care less about haze?