Nitrogen Cylinders

[baron]

Read a few older posts but cant seem to find relevant information. If there is please direct me to it.

I am after a food grade gas cylinder for a nitrogen/co2 mix.
I have called a few places like BOC, elgas, grain and grape and keg king.
They all either dont sell them or only rent them out. I dont want to rent a a cylinder. I want to buy one or at least do a swap and go type setup.

Does anyone know where i can buy one of these so i can get it filled in the Geelong/Melbourne area? Or do a swap type thing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Bribie G]

It's a very specialised field and I'd guess that if you did manage to buy a cylinder you wouldn't find anyone to refill it.

However you could maybe try and contact Ross or Anthony at CraftBrewer, they have a very tall Nitro bottle that they use for their nitro ales and stouts, I'm not sure if that's leased or swap, they could maybe let you know where they get theirs from.

I have a normal 10kg nitro mix bottle through BOC.. it works out about a schooner a week to rent so not complaining too much.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Last week I picked up my 10kg Vt037 multi mix from BOC. $38 for the initial full bottle and $17per month. They said no one sells this kind out right anymore which sucks, so looking into Bribie's suggestion may be possible.

Hey Bribie, I have my ale carbed low to ~ 2.0vol. What do I do now, just add nitro and pour? Or do I have to get nitro force carbed for a few days? (stout tap installed)

Any tips would be great.

 

[Bribie G]

I normally carb for a few days on multi mix at a high pressure then scale it back for serving at about 300.
Will post more accurately tomorrow as I'm putting on a cream flow Pom bitter.

 

[rockeye84]

I've only ever used boc food fresh co2. Any benefit in going to the boc cellar mix co2/nitro blend? Every time I go behind the scenes at a pub there running a co2/nitro blend. Is it cheaper?

 

[danestead]

I use a BOC Multimix bottle and just hook it up to a keg of flat beer at 30psi and pour through my nitro tap. Takes a week or 2 to 'carb' up. Not sure of any quick ways to do it as I havent looked into it yet. Maybe hooking it up at 50psi and letting it 'carb' up over a few days if you trust you fittings with that sort of pressure.

 

[baron]

OK Thanks Bribie G and Pratty1.... looks like ill have to hire one

 

[barls]

My keg on leg was doing a 70/30 mix if you arranged it in the bottle where you were swapping it ahead of time not sure if they still are

 

[mckenry]

I've only ever used boc food fresh co2. Any benefit in going to the boc cellar mix co2/nitro blend? Every time I go behind the scenes at a pub there running a co2/nitro blend. Is it cheaper?

The reason pubs use blends is to avoid over carbonation. Many are as low as 40% co2 and 60% n2. They often require high pressure to push beer a long way, so 100% co2 is going to carb the beer up. In the small bar I am licensee at, I turn the gas off after every use to avoid this. We use 100% co2. We aren't open everyday either. At home it happens too, but to a smaller degree.

 

[MastersBrewery]

The reason pubs use blends is to avoid over carbonation. Many are as low as 40% co2 and 60% n2. They often require high pressure to push beer a long way, so 100% co2 is going to carb the beer up. In the small bar I am licensee at, I turn the gas off after every use to avoid this. We use 100% co2. We aren't open everyday either. At home it happens too, but to a smaller degree.

This be correct, I worked in pubs and clubs that had runs of 100m, now to be clear; even cellar mix isn't getting you that far, they used beer pumps. Mostly it's about balancing your system, which on a smaller home setup Co2 should be adequate, however if you want that Guinness type head and mouth feel nitro is the way to go.

Now the above got me thinking; would you be able to standard carb a stout, run it through a beer pump to stout tap with pressure plate, with the beer pump providing the excess pressure say 200kpa at the tap? The question I believe comes down to how long it takes the pressure to affect the dissolved Co2.

 

[Bribie G]

When I drank in the North East of England in the 70s it was a bit of a real ale desert. Most of the pubs were owned by Scottish and Newcastle, Vaux of Sunderland with just the oddity owned by Whitbread or Camerons.
As in Australia, there was a huge network of Working Men's clubs (think typical RSL) and they had their own massive brewery, Federation Brewery that was later bought by Scottish and Newcastle.
Then closed down.
c*nts

on topic:

Draught beers were invariably delivered by road tanker and piped down to bright beer tanks carbed to whatever CO2 volume and served to the bar by electric pump. Actually very nice beer and a lot better than the horrible keg beers that replaced them. With just a few breweries having a stranglehold on the region and not such a huge choice of taps, it made perfect logistical sense rather than sending out drays of barrels.

The beers typically would be served through a sparkler font (think restrictor plate) with massive creamy heads. It would work.



Meantime in the UK, and also Pilsner Urquell are using this system again.


edit: where would you get a beer pump that didn't agitate the beer to buggery while trying to push it?

 

[MastersBrewery]

hell Bribie, I think you just sold me.

Ed: didn't see your edit; same ones they use in pubs now they're pneumatic sureflow I seem to remember being one of the brands; I know andale sell them. There was a thread not so long ago about them MHB said they were pretty good stuff.
Ed2:Found thew related thread to beer pumps here
You can see I got the spelling wrong and the best to get would be these flojet pumps

 

[danestead]

https://youtu.be/rxX2kH1eum8

mmmmm nitrogen.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Got my Nitro hooked up last night. The beer was already carbonated with Co2 to about 1.8 vols at a guess.

The nitro pressure was set @ 25 PSI for a first go and it was creamy cascading awesomeness!!

I will do the next pour at the full 35psi as the beer still had a fair amount of Co2 in solution and the higher pressurer should knock that out.

 

[yankinoz]

When I drank in the North East of England in the 70s it was a bit of a real ale desert. Most of the pubs were owned by Scottish and Newcastle, Vaux of Sunderland with just the oddity owned by Whitbread or Camerons.
As in Australia, there was a huge network of Working Men's clubs (think typical RSL) and they had their own massive brewery, Federation Brewery that was later bought by Scottish and Newcastle.
Then closed down.
c*nts

on topic:

Draught beers were invariably delivered by road tanker and piped down to bright beer tanks carbed to whatever CO2 volume and served to the bar by electric pump. Actually very nice beer and a lot better than the horrible keg beers that replaced them. With just a few breweries having a stranglehold on the region and not such a huge choice of taps, it made perfect logistical sense rather than sending out drays of barrels.

The beers typically would be served through a sparkler font (think restrictor plate) with massive creamy heads. It would work.

beer tanker 1.jpg

beer tanker 2.jpg

Meantime in the UK, and also Pilsner Urquell are using this system again.


edit: where would you get a beer pump that didn't agitate the beer to buggery while trying to push it?

Bribie, I'll second your impressions frpm the 1970s, but add a few possibly relevant notes about pumped draught vs kegs for ale.

Side note: I quite liked the Workingmen's Club brews and the quasi-socialist beer over in Carlisle/New Gretna, but about the big guys:

At the time you mention >90% of English pubs were tied houses owne by the brewers and let out to tenants. Competition was slight.

I interviewed several brewery general managers and one of the McWhirter brothers in 1971 and 1972. They all argued that brewers could pack the same ale in kegs as in casks, but gave two reasons why some were seizing the opportunity to change the beer.

(1) They wanted to pack biologically more stable beer in kegs because beers that turned over slowly got flat or even foul. I did find those problems sometimes, especially in small pubs with low turnover. Dirty lines were sometimes at fault too. I recall kegging was supposed to reduce that problem, but have no idea how it would. You now the setups?

(2) They wanted to aim lagers and "lighter" ales at beginning drinkers, and then keep them.

It's easy to see why CAMRA formed at about that time, but contrary to what some CAMRA peope say, it was marketing, not kegging per se that threatened real ale.

What does CAMRA think of electric pumps? They seem to like hand-pulled ale.

So, mates, keg your real ales, and nitro if you wish.