Next step up options from BIAB
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Alex.Tas
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To answer the original question: as mentioned above, you really need to look at why you want to change your current setup.
I haven't done any alternative method, only BIAB in a crown urn - non recirculated (yet), so take the below statement as you see fit.
paint stirrer from mitre 10 does the job nicely. you can move the mash up and down rather than round and round like you would with a traditional mash paddle, which stops the bag twisting. you can also feel if you have large amounts of grain sitting on the bottom on the bag, near the element.
It looks like a big potato masher, so I like it as it means I literally mash my mash, especially when I'm mashing my mash to mashout with my masher. possibly whist eating mash with mash on the tv.
I haven't done any alternative method, only BIAB in a crown urn - non recirculated (yet), so take the below statement as you see fit.
- If you are time poor and want a set and forget, maybe go with the grainfather, perhaps wait until they have programmable mash settings like the BM.
- if you enjoy the process and really just want to be more involved with the wort production go with 3V.
- if you like to tinker and are boored with the way you currently make your wort, then build a recirculated system for your current rig. Include a PID or something to control your mash temp/pumps etc.
- if you want to make better beer... what i take from the other comments is to stick with what you have. BIAB makes great beer and heaps of people have made award winning beer on a BIAB setup.
yeah i found that giving it a stir every 20 min or so and mashing for 90 min increased my mash efficiency up to around 85%.PaleRider said:
paint stirrer from mitre 10 does the job nicely. you can move the mash up and down rather than round and round like you would with a traditional mash paddle, which stops the bag twisting. you can also feel if you have large amounts of grain sitting on the bottom on the bag, near the element.
It looks like a big potato masher, so I like it as it means I literally mash my mash, especially when I'm mashing my mash to mashout with my masher. possibly whist eating mash with mash on the tv.
buckerooni
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I feel unqualified to add any authoritative suggestions but I'd have thought (above what's already been suggested - mash time/stirring etc):
- the milling/quality of grain
- water temp control
- water chemistry
would all affect efficiency.
I guess the bigger question that's also been alluded to iis if you want to solve the efficiency problem or really just get some new kit
- the milling/quality of grain
- water temp control
- water chemistry
would all affect efficiency.
I guess the bigger question that's also been alluded to iis if you want to solve the efficiency problem or really just get some new kit
stux
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So, to the OP, how about solve your process/efficiency issues, which probably won't be expensivebuckerooni said:I feel unqualified to add any authoritative suggestions but I'd have thought (above what's already been suggested - mash time/stirring etc):
- the milling/quality of grain
- water temp control
- water chemistry
would all affect efficiency.
I guess the bigger question that's also been alluded to iis if you want to solve the efficiency problem or really just get some new kit
, and then if you still want, get some new kit 
DJ_L3ThAL
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BIAB is great, I double batch on gas and step mash too, quite simply by keeping my Swiss voile sheet off base of the pot.
Also found significant efficiency increase from getting a proper mash paddle as mentioned above. I got the keg king stainless steel one and it makes it easy to break up the grain without needing to twist, I lift the mash up as well, which the large head of the paddle makes simple. I'm talking 60-70% taken up to 75-80% now for most batches, in fact I'm still working to nail my known typical efficiency to prevent a higher than intended gravity.
Also found significant efficiency increase from getting a proper mash paddle as mentioned above. I got the keg king stainless steel one and it makes it easy to break up the grain without needing to twist, I lift the mash up as well, which the large head of the paddle makes simple. I'm talking 60-70% taken up to 75-80% now for most batches, in fact I'm still working to nail my known typical efficiency to prevent a higher than intended gravity.
contrarian
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If it's efficiency you are after there are much simpler places to start than more gear. As has been said above a 90 minute minimum for BIAB mash makes a big difference. Understanding your local water profile and making some adjustments based on the beer you would like to make will help with efficiency and also to accentuate certain flavours and assist yeast.
One of the big ones though is mash pH. It can seem complicated but some simple pH strips from one of the site sponsors will give you a decent idea of what you are working with. I recently bought some acidulated malt and for my water adding a small amount (~100g for 40 Litres into fermenters) made a significant difference to efficiency. There are other ways to adjust mash pH as well.
If you are not doing a mash out that could help as well, I have sky hook and just lift the bag off the bottom while I raise the temp, could also work for step mashing but I have never bothered with that, normally use the mash to mow the lawn or take the kids to the beach!
One of the big ones though is mash pH. It can seem complicated but some simple pH strips from one of the site sponsors will give you a decent idea of what you are working with. I recently bought some acidulated malt and for my water adding a small amount (~100g for 40 Litres into fermenters) made a significant difference to efficiency. There are other ways to adjust mash pH as well.
If you are not doing a mash out that could help as well, I have sky hook and just lift the bag off the bottom while I raise the temp, could also work for step mashing but I have never bothered with that, normally use the mash to mow the lawn or take the kids to the beach!
I BIAB, I found that why just do a single batch when it isn't really any extra work to do a double, so went from a 50 litre keggle to 100 litre pot, and now do double batches all the time without the risk of boil overs.
efficiency is around the 75- 80%, once strike temp is reached I wrap the pot in an old doona,and mash for 90mins .
efficiency is around the 75- 80%, once strike temp is reached I wrap the pot in an old doona,and mash for 90mins .
Hi folks, just sifting through all your response. I guess what I should be doing is refining my process and understand why my efficiency is lowish. I have started mashing for 90 minutes so that should help.
I am not sure I am measuring efficiency correctly, but I have Beersmith set to 65% and hit the calculated OG into the cube for the most part. I must admit I end up with a fair bit of trub as well and usually end up with about 21l into cube including trub. I don't have a hop filter either.
I do wonder about my bag draining technique, or lack thereof, I don't have a way to hoist so it pretty much just sits in a strainer for a while and gets a bit of a squeeze that's it.
Anyone got a suggestion on how I should confirm my efficiency calculation in beersmith is right?
I am not sure I am measuring efficiency correctly, but I have Beersmith set to 65% and hit the calculated OG into the cube for the most part. I must admit I end up with a fair bit of trub as well and usually end up with about 21l into cube including trub. I don't have a hop filter either.
I do wonder about my bag draining technique, or lack thereof, I don't have a way to hoist so it pretty much just sits in a strainer for a while and gets a bit of a squeeze that's it.
Anyone got a suggestion on how I should confirm my efficiency calculation in beersmith is right?
stux
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BeerSmith is telling you the Into Fermenter efficiency, and 65% for BIAB with no trub management is about right. The "Est Mash Eff" is what really matters... and should really be about 80-83%
The mash efficiency is how efficiently you are turning the grain into wort. The difference between that and Into Fermenter efficiency or as BeerSmith calls it "Brewhouse Efficiency" is how efficiently you are getting the wort out of your kettle and into your fermenter. Ie every L lost after the boil because you couldn't drain it, or separate it from the hops, or because you left it behind in your cube.
For recipe formulation all that matters is the mash eff. The brewhouse efficiency just means you get more or less beer.
BIAB results in a relatively more crap in the boil, which ends up at the bottom of your kettle. Which makes it hard to drain the last few L. The solution is to aim for MORE liquid at the end of the boil.
Or alternatively, put some sortof filter in to either keep the hops drainable, or to help drain more of the good wort from the rest of the crud at the bottom.
65% is not really a problem, and maybe... you could get it up to 70%
The difference would be 50c in saved grain. Takes a long time to pay back a new brewery at 50c per brew
In BIAB, the mash efficiency is basically limited to grain absorption. If you had 100% Conversion Efficiency (and 99% is quite doable with BIAB), then you would have 100% of the available malt extract disolved in your mash water.
Now, 83% then means you are leaving 17% of the sugars behind.
That 17% is because 17% of your mash water is being lost to grain absorption.
Sparge your grain with an amount of water equal to the absorption, and you get half of your losses back, but that means that you have less water in your mash, and thus the losses due to absorption in teh first place are greater! The math gets tricky
Suffice to say, until your mash efficiency starts to drop quite low as your OG goes up, then its not worth sparging.
Now, fast forward to end of boil.. say you have 25L, and you end up with 20L in your fermenter. You've just lost 5L, which is another 20% loss of your sugars, and thus another 20% efficiency hit.
83% * (100-20%) = 66.4%
Reduce the 20% loss
...
So, we reduce the wastage from 5L to 3L. Now we get 22L in fermenter... and a 12% loss.
83% * (100-12%) = 73% Into Fermenter Efficiency. Without changing the recipe, or the initial volumes.
Hell... Just tip your whole kettle into your fermenter and you'd get 83% efficiency.
Might not be the best for the final beer tho.
The mash efficiency is how efficiently you are turning the grain into wort. The difference between that and Into Fermenter efficiency or as BeerSmith calls it "Brewhouse Efficiency" is how efficiently you are getting the wort out of your kettle and into your fermenter. Ie every L lost after the boil because you couldn't drain it, or separate it from the hops, or because you left it behind in your cube.
For recipe formulation all that matters is the mash eff. The brewhouse efficiency just means you get more or less beer.
BIAB results in a relatively more crap in the boil, which ends up at the bottom of your kettle. Which makes it hard to drain the last few L. The solution is to aim for MORE liquid at the end of the boil.
Or alternatively, put some sortof filter in to either keep the hops drainable, or to help drain more of the good wort from the rest of the crud at the bottom.
65% is not really a problem, and maybe... you could get it up to 70%
The difference would be 50c in saved grain. Takes a long time to pay back a new brewery at 50c per brew
In BIAB, the mash efficiency is basically limited to grain absorption. If you had 100% Conversion Efficiency (and 99% is quite doable with BIAB), then you would have 100% of the available malt extract disolved in your mash water.
Now, 83% then means you are leaving 17% of the sugars behind.
That 17% is because 17% of your mash water is being lost to grain absorption.
Sparge your grain with an amount of water equal to the absorption, and you get half of your losses back, but that means that you have less water in your mash, and thus the losses due to absorption in teh first place are greater! The math gets tricky
Suffice to say, until your mash efficiency starts to drop quite low as your OG goes up, then its not worth sparging.
Now, fast forward to end of boil.. say you have 25L, and you end up with 20L in your fermenter. You've just lost 5L, which is another 20% loss of your sugars, and thus another 20% efficiency hit.
83% * (100-20%) = 66.4%
Reduce the 20% loss
...
So, we reduce the wastage from 5L to 3L. Now we get 22L in fermenter... and a 12% loss.
83% * (100-12%) = 73% Into Fermenter Efficiency. Without changing the recipe, or the initial volumes.
Hell... Just tip your whole kettle into your fermenter and you'd get 83% efficiency.
Might not be the best for the final beer tho.
Going to do another BIAB this Saturday and try a few of the suggestions, like using a paint stirrer for one. I will report back on if I was able to improve efficiency. Doing a LCPA clone.
I reckon one way or another I will probably end up going down the Grainfather path, it looks like a great bit of kit and my urn will still play a part.
Cheers all, great response to my OP.
Would love to share a brew with anyone on north side of Brissy one day and see how others go about this great hobby.
Wadey
I reckon one way or another I will probably end up going down the Grainfather path, it looks like a great bit of kit and my urn will still play a part.
Cheers all, great response to my OP.
Would love to share a brew with anyone on north side of Brissy one day and see how others go about this great hobby.
Wadey
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
This kind of in depth response is what first drew me to ahb. Glad they still make an appearance. Great effort and appreciated by many.Stux said:BeerSmith is telling you the Into Fermenter efficiency, and 65% for BIAB with no trub management is about right. The "Est Mash Eff" is what really matters... and should really be about 80-83%
The mash efficiency is how efficiently you are turning the grain into wort. The difference between that and Into Fermenter efficiency or as BeerSmith calls it "Brewhouse Efficiency" is how efficiently you are getting the wort out of your kettle and into your fermenter. Ie every L lost after the boil because you couldn't drain it, or separate it from the hops, or because you left it behind in your cube.
For recipe formulation all that matters is the mash eff. The brewhouse efficiency just means you get more or less beer.
BIAB results in a relatively more crap in the boil, which ends up at the bottom of your kettle. Which makes it hard to drain the last few L. The solution is to aim for MORE liquid at the end of the boil.
Or alternatively, put some sortof filter in to either keep the hops drainable, or to help drain more of the good wort from the rest of the crud at the bottom.
65% is not really a problem, and maybe... you could get it up to 70%
The difference would be 50c in saved grain. Takes a long time to pay back a new brewery at 50c per brew
In BIAB, the mash efficiency is basically limited to grain absorption. If you had 100% Conversion Efficiency (and 99% is quite doable with BIAB), then you would have 100% of the available malt extract disolved in your mash water.
Now, 83% then means you are leaving 17% of the sugars behind.
That 17% is because 17% of your mash water is being lost to grain absorption.
Sparge your grain with an amount of water equal to the absorption, and you get half of your losses back, but that means that you have less water in your mash, and thus the losses due to absorption in teh first place are greater! The math gets tricky
Suffice to say, until your mash efficiency starts to drop quite low as your OG goes up, then its not worth sparging.
Now, fast forward to end of boil.. say you have 25L, and you end up with 20L in your fermenter. You've just lost 5L, which is another 20% loss of your sugars, and thus another 20% efficiency hit.
83% * (100-20%) = 66.4%
Reduce the 20% loss
...
So, we reduce the wastage from 5L to 3L. Now we get 22L in fermenter... and a 12% loss.
83% * (100-12%) = 73% Into Fermenter Efficiency. Without changing the recipe, or the initial volumes.
Hell... Just tip your whole kettle into your fermenter and you'd get 83% efficiency.
Might not be the best for the final beer tho.
woodwormm
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I've recently stepped up from biab in equipment but yet to use it and prove it. I was doing double batch biab but the blankets and doonas gave me the irits. I'm going full volume mash in an 80litre esky then into old kettle for boil. Essentially a 2 vessel system I guess. I'll report back once it's commissioned
Bridges
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I don't have much room to brew so always biabed 20l batches, thought temp control, recirc and electric rather than gas would be the easier and better, much time and a few bucks later, stuffed my first attempt with the new system, total disaster, I'm (holds thumb and index finger 2.5mm apart) this close to pulling the trigger on a grainfather as I'm not sure I can be arsed with a few more shit batches and stuff ups until I get it right. Hindsight said I should have stuck with what has been working great for the past few years. I'm not sure where the desire to tinker and play with things to "improve" them comes from but it seems to be a common affliction round these parts.
So in answer to the OP's question. Stick with what is working now, I was happy for my first few AG brews to be a bit average, but is really irks me that the worst wort I've ever produced was with my new and improved system.
So in answer to the OP's question. Stick with what is working now, I was happy for my first few AG brews to be a bit average, but is really irks me that the worst wort I've ever produced was with my new and improved system.
DJ_L3ThAL
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To be fair Bridges thats the road you ended up on, the OP may find the transition easy or it may just go smoother than it did for you due simply to luck.
Even if you did produce the worst wort on your new system, you're probably learning more and faster trying to nut it out than you did previously?
Most people love learning along the way to making a perfect beer from what i gather also. If the OP bought a grainfather or built his own HERMS from scratch there would still be plenty to learn either way. Everyones provided great insight in this thread but it is always going to boil down to the OPs final decision which they gotta make on their own.
1c
Even if you did produce the worst wort on your new system, you're probably learning more and faster trying to nut it out than you did previously?
Most people love learning along the way to making a perfect beer from what i gather also. If the OP bought a grainfather or built his own HERMS from scratch there would still be plenty to learn either way. Everyones provided great insight in this thread but it is always going to boil down to the OPs final decision which they gotta make on their own.
1c
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