Next step up options from BIAB

[Wadey]

Hi fellow brewers.

I'm after some opinions and advice on my next venture in the wonderful hobby of home brewing.

I have been biabing for a fair while now and my efficiency has been pretty average (65%) but producing reasonable beers and thought I might like to do one of two things:

1) I have been eyeing off the Grainfather, should I save my pennies and go this way. I can keep my crown urn for sparge water, so that's a bonus.

Or.

2) Buy a Cooler Mash Tun and I could still use the urn as a boiler

Big difference in $ I guess but curious as to what people's thoughts were based on their experiences.

Wadey

 

[Tahoose]

The big question is; what do you want out of your system?

Able to brew often/less often?
Batch size - singles, double or triples?
Hand on brewdays or more automated?

I'm of the opinion that buy well buy once is the best way. Grainfather is a good system for the price tag but if you enjoy the hands on part your could expand your urn and head towards a 3v, or if your handy you could turn the urn into a recirculating system as others have done.

Along the BIAB subject if you are happy with your beers you could just keep this system and refine your process. Like you mentioned you could mash in an esky, heat up some sparge water, put that to the side, run your wort into the urn and batch sparge afterwards. If your doing a full volume BIAB this should increase your efficiency straight away.

 

[Lecterfan]

I went from BIAB to double-batch gravity 3V. If I was staying single batch I would probably have remained BIAB...other than the bling/hobby-factor I don't think the method of separating wort from grain makes much difference myself.

But if the urge to spend and expand is too great, then go for your life. Just don't pretend that new fancy brewing gear fills the abyssal existential darkness in your day-to-day life.

 

[Bribie G]

If you are doing full volume BIAB in a Crown Urn I'm surprised that your eff is only about 65%... I usually run at around 75 - 80 which is also typical of 3v.

"step up" from full volume BIAB is usually just step sideways and several forum members have gone from HERMs etc to BIAB for the simplicity. As last poster implied the difference is really just whether you want to remove the wort from the grain or the grain from the wort.

I often wish that BIAB had been called MIAB (mash in a bag) because it's only one small step in the grain to brain process.

 

[Hippy]

Go the Grainfather.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Add a Little Brown Pump and controller so you can step mash. You won't have the same flow rate as you can acheive with a true HERMS rig, but you'll be able to play around with what the different rests do. Then add a small urn for sparging. There's more to be gained from the various mash rests than there is from anything else. A Grainfather or Braumeiser is just a glorified recirculating BIAB rig. IMO. Which probably isn't worth much.

 

[Bribie G]

I play around with rests perfectly with BIAB.

Puzzled somewhat.

 

[anthonyUK]

I can't see efficiency as a reason to move from BIAB especially at 65%.
Your cost saving from increased efficiency will amount to around 50c per batch which could take some time to recoup.
More/better equipment will not make you a better brewer especially a Braumeister which does it all for you

I agree with FB that the grainfather/Braumeister are glorified BIAB systems.

 

[manticle]

Get equipment cos/if you want it. If you just want to improve your beer, seek improvements with the equipment you currently have.
I firmly believe in good tools but in my experience, great wort is produced on a variety of systems and biab is one of those. By all means go for the system you want/can afford but so much of decent beer production is before and after wort production.

I don't want to underestimate good wort production though - it is essential but recipe + care using biab,herms, rims, esky, grainfather or brau can produce decent wort if you know what you are doing.

 

[skb]

I moved from BIAB to 3V late last year ... Purchased whole set up of this site. Not really sure why apart from double batch and wanted to do it closer to the way a brew pub does for experience... Oh and I like the process.

In my view BIAB are just as good as 3V and a lot easier and quicker (3v 50% longer in my case - but double batch solves this). My efficiency dropped on 3V no idea why (I was 75-80 on BIAB)

So my point of about efficiency, don't bother, if about taste don't bother (my BIAB got 3rd in state on larger and equal 3rd ( commendation) for stout). If it is about stuffing around, enjoying the process then go for it.,

fYI - last week used BIAB and 3V at same time to make 60L but that was a little busy...

 

[Wadey]

Thanks all, really helpful. I am wondering why my efficiency is so low and to be honest was a main driver to make the change. What's the main issue with low efficiency anyway, does it just mean less grain required for same target gravity?

 

[stux]

Are you measuring mash/lauter efficiency, ie efficency into kettle or efficiency into fermenter?

You should get about 80% efficency into kettle using BIAB on circa 1.050 beers. If you're doing stronger beers then you should think about doing a dunk sparge.

If you're leaving a lot of trub behind then that will affect your into fermenter efficiency. You can reduce this by using a hop back/filter.

I noticed ibrew now sells a nice hop back
http://www.ibrew.com.au/collections/frontpage/products/hop-filter-spider

Personally, I think a good reason to go to 3V would be for large batch sizes (larger than double batches), to do multi batch pipelines or to dick around. If you want to do better beer then add recirculation and control to your biab system

 

[Mardoo]

All my best beers came off stovetop BIAB. I got a cooler and have been doing essentially 2V BIAB. The lack of ability to do mashes with more than 2 steps, due to the limitations of infusion mashing, is frustrating. So I am slowly piecing together a 4V HERMS, having considered staying 2V and doing all my mashes as decoction. My recommendation? Take Manticle's advice from post #9. It ain't the meat, it's the motion.

 

[Yob]

It ain't the meat, it's the motion.

you have been talking to Cocko again?

I love my 4V and wouldn't do it any other way. I went right from Partials to 3V then 4V (hated vourlauf)

The main reason I love the 4V is the size, I can do an easy 75lt every time (high gravity) or push to 100lt for a 1.040/50 wort. The only thing I cant do easily now is single batches

For me it's a time thing, with a young family time is critical and day time more so, so I find Im either brewing from 9PM onwards (which makes for a late night) or setting the timers and letting it do it by itself (HERMS ramping from timer)

I loved my builds and making all my bits and bobs all the way through, the system is tailored to my needs, I also set it up so in the event of a power outage it can be transformed to infusion/gravity so my HERMS in an option.

Its also extremely ghetto but bling at the same time

 

[RdeVjun]

Low efficiency simply equates to more grain required to achieve a particular specific gravity. It isn't such a big factor for us amateurs as the additional expense is easily absorbed, but a reliable handle on efficiency can mean less fiddling with any particular recipe to meet the desired ends.
I wonder if you may find greater satisfaction in honing your bag mashing technique rather than changing methods and buying new kit, there's a good chance that you will encounter the same issue with any other equipment plus a whole host of other new challenges.
Oh, and I concur with Bribie WRT step mashing, same goes for decoction too, both easily achieved with routine bag mashing.
My 2c FWIW, hope it is helpful.

 

[mje1980]

All personal preference really. I did 3v for 10 years. Tried BIAB once, never looked back. Step mashing is easy, one water addition to the mash tun/keggle, less cleaning etc. I recently did a double batch of mild in my 50l keggle. The best thing about 3v was double batches but as I just mentioned, I've successfully done a double BIAB in my keggle. Mid strength beer to be fair, but I'm confident I could do a 5% double batch in there, without adding sugaz to the boil.

Some gentlemen prefer blondes, some brunettes.

 

[Dae Tripper]

I might be over simplifying this but do you add the kettle loss to the usefull wort in the calculations for efficiency?

 

[Tahoose]

You buggers aren't helping with my 3v/herms deliberations...

I'm only a pump and a coil away from what I already have...

 

[TheWiggman]

What's your intent? I'll use myself as an example...

I like to build, tinker, break and fix stuff. I enjoyed chopping up the pots and HERMS as much as I enjoyed wiring up the controllers. The whole setup is uniquely 'Wiggers' and I like it that way. It shares elements of other systems but at the same time is the fruits of my labour and love. Some early ideas of mine didn't quite work so I spent and built upon it, and suddenly I was looking at >$1000 of brewing gear with little beer to show for it. No bother, it is a hobby and the beer will come (and it did). Don't let anyone tell you a hobby is not worth the cash if that's where you want to spend your money.
If I had to do it again I would end up with the same final product without the upgrades.

If I wanted to make beer I now realise that BIAB is as effective as any, short of some very unique brewing methods which most people don't bother with (i.e. high temp sparge).
If I had $1000 and lived in a unit / didn't have space, I'd go the Grainfather.
If I had $2500, I'd buy a Braumeister.
If I was doing double batches and had some cash, I'd go 4V HERMS with 100l pots.
If I didn't have much money floating about, 40l urn and bag and the remainder on a bar fridge for fermentation.

So that's my thoughts based on experiences.

 

[PaleRider]

Thanks all, really helpful. I am wondering why my efficiency is so low and to be honest was a main driver to make the change. What's the main issue with low efficiency anyway, does it just mean less grain required for same target gravity?

Interested to know if you mash for 60 or 90 minutes?
I do 90 min. mash with a good mix half way through. 75 - 80% efficiency on a very basic 50l keggle / gas burner setup.