New Australian Style - Experiment Invite/Discussion

[Nizmoose]

If that's the case you better start drawing up a guideline for jasper Ale, even the people at Stone and Wood can't categorise that beer .

Seriously, there are plenty of commercial beers out there that don't adequately fit a particular style, I know that Pacific Ale is a nice beer but does it really warrant it's own style? It's good, but not that good that's it's being emulated commercially.

Haha that's a good point, perhaps it will take a few more commercial examples before it's considered a style of its own

 

[dicko]

Cascade Bright Ale....is it an Ale?

Is it brewed in Australia?

Does it use all Aussie ingredients?

If yes, does it fit into the current guidelines or should a beer like that fit into a new style guidline?

The AABC guidelines are close but only need a little adjustment. I would like to forget BJCP personally.

Again, only my thoughts.

Then if we are creating a new style there are many NZ beers which don't fit the BJCP guidelines either. h34r:

 

[Nizmoose]

Cascade Bright Ale....is it an Ale?

Is it brewed in Australia?

Does it use all Aussie ingredients?

If yes, does it fit into the current guidelines or should a beer like that fit into a new style guidline?

The AABC guidelines are close but only need a little adjustment. I would like to forget BJCP personally.

Again, only my thoughts.

Then if we are creating a new style there are many NZ beers which don't fit the BJCP guidelines either. h34r:

You make an interesting point about BJCP vs AABC

 

[Camo6]

Good point. The guidelines I did write up sort of do this. A partly wheat based smashable Ale, not too big on body, brewed with southern hops.

Happy to have someone do an edit and see what comes out?

BJCP STYLES

12.B ASA: Australian Sparkling Ale

12.B.2 ASAM: A'strayan Smashbull Ale...Maaate.


I think you nailed it LRG. Next!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Look truth be told, I'm not certain, I just think this is a fantastic debate and a point worth talking about.

But continuing the debate, with little or no tweaking beers such as Mac's Hop Rocker, Bridge Roads Single Hop IPA (less IBU but the flavour and malt profile is right), even Knappstein Reserve Lager - due to use of Nelson Sauvin could be tweaked to be in it.

Also, the weather thing. It is a beer for "Aussie" summer weather. Heck, even here in Tassie it gets warm.

I see the S&W PA being the base of this style (and let's face it, it doesn't to be the only one), because it was the first on memory to give Galaxy a go, it doesn't fit another style, it has spawned a helluva lot of clones and it has appeared to spawn a lot of single hop beers. Now I know that SMaSH beers or Single Hop craft style beers (yes, I know that XXXX and VB are single hop, don't be facetious ) aren't the exclusive domain of Aussies, but we do tend to do them a great deal.

S&WPA isn't the same old same old of American beers with an Aussie hop interpretation, it is new enough. Add in the fact that it is very readily available all over Australia (I walked into Dan's at Albury-Wodonga and there it is on the shelf, as I did all down the eastern seaboard) means that it has a fairly decent commercial market and reach.

Don't read my putting this beer up as my exclusive devotion to it, or that it's the best beer ever. There are many beers I like better. But I see the beers I like better as being examples of existing styles.

Taking some snippets from the BJCP draft guidelines:

"The goals of the new edition are to better address world beer styles as found in their local markets, keep pace with emerging craft beer market trends, describe historical beers now finding a following, better describe the sensory characteristics of modern brewing ingredients, take advantage of new research and references, and help competition organizers better manage the complexity of their events."

"We believed we were creating a standardized set of style descriptions for use in homebrew competitions, but then found they were widely adopted worldwide to describe beer in general. Many countries with emerging craft beer markets were using them as handbooks for what to brew"

To me, this means that the BJCP were always intended only for HB comps, not for commercial or educational use. If we as HBers are regularly brewing a clone of a non-styled beer, it should be there.

About the styles - "They are suggestions, not hard limits. Allow for some flexibility in judging so that well-crafted examples can be rewarded. The guidelines are written in detail to facilitate the process of the structured evaluation of beer as practiced in homebrewing competitions; don’t take each individual statement in a style description as a reason to disqualify a beer."

Countering my own arguments:

"Not every commercial beer fits our styles. Don’t assume that every beer fits neatly into one of our categories. Some breweries revel in creating examples that don’t match our (or anyone else’s) guidelines. Some create beers called a style name that deliberately don’t match our guidelines. It’s perfectly fine for a commercial beer to not match one of our styles; we have not attempted to categorize every commercial beer – that is not our intent or our mission........They do, however, describe the beers most commonly made today by homebrewers and many craft breweries."

To me - we could use S&W PA as the basis for a style, or we could widen the scope for it and make a style that would include S&WPA, but not exclusively so. Or this whole debate is pointless and we stick to what is already there.

I really value the comments of all who have seriously weighed in, even if I disagree (or appear to) with you. I think it's worth a talk. What defines "Aussie" craft beer, that isn't just American-style beer made in Australia. Who knows, but I reckon it's worth discussing.

And as I said above, putting those guidelines together were just fleshing out what was pretty well already discussed in the format for a style guideline. As BJCP said, they aren't set in stone.

The fact that we're debating this post a 'style guideline' means that at least we have created a starting point.

 

[vykuza]

Appearance: Very light yellow to gold. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. Low to medium white head with fair to good retention.

Flavour: Optional light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, wheat). Caramel flavors typically absent. Moderate hop flavour, but not aggressive. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with low perceived bitterness. Clean yeast profile if using Ale or Lager yeast, with other yeasts (such as farmhouse, Saison, or wild yeasts) allowed, but their character should be muted and not overpower the hops or malt.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium-light body. Well attenuated. Medium to high carbonation. Smooth without harsh bitterness, carbonic bite or astringency.

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma. Medium hop aroma and can reflect almost any AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. Typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, while hop-forward, still retains balance. Fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is critical as is a thirst-quenching character.

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral if an Ale or Lager Yeast (minimal esters) or blended with hop aroma and malt flavour if Wild or Farmhouse variety such as a saison.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate).

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale, Two Birds Golden Ale

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Excellent Job, NickR.

 

[mje1980]

If you use a farmhouse or saison yeast it will be a completely different beer to a standard clean ale or lager yeast. How can a specific style have such diversity in the yeast used to ferment it?.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

If you use a farmhouse or saison yeast it will be a completely different beer to a standard clean ale or lager yeast. How can a specific style have such diversity in the yeast used to ferment it?.

I've used Saison yeast on a 50/50 Pils/Wheat with Galaxy. It ends up drier, but pretty much in the style and does have that 'thirst quenching' taste.

I only chucked that in there for the discussion. As is mentioned, this is, as Live say, White, Discussion.

 

[sponge]

If you use a farmhouse or saison yeast it will be a completely different beer to a standard clean ale or lager yeast. How can a specific style have such diversity in the yeast used to ferment it?.

I agree. Something cleaner would be required for this. As much as saisons suit brewing in the Australian climate, the beers for this 'style' are generally cleaner and quaffable (not saying saisons aren't) with much more hop presence. Not to say you couldn't use a saison yeast, but it would need to be fermented cold and fairly restrained with the esters.

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale, Two Birds Golden Ale

Could almost be adding beers like Australian Brewery pale ale, and Murrays whale ale, assuming the whale ale uses Aus/NZ hops.. although you could probably also class that as an american wheat.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Good point, sponge, Murray's Whale Ale very much fits the bill (Do murrays change hops? that way it wouldn't be american wheat).

How about the guidelines without Saison/farmhouse etc. It was chucked in there for climate but no commercial examples exist per se.

Interesting to see this post in the Vic case swap recipe thread, by an Englishman no less

 

[sponge]

Guidelines without the farmhouse/saison differentiates this style to the belgian blondes and saisons and the like. A cleaner yeast, or even british yeast fermented cooler works (I've used 1469 on a couple of these styles of beers with good results) would be the most suitable IMO.

I know Murrays love their NZ hops so wouldn't be surprised if they used something from there for the whale ale.

But I think something with a decent % of wheat, light bitterness, fairly clean and dry with a fruity nose is on the money for what we're discussing.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Spoke to a commercial (successful) craft brewer in Victoria, and their take is that NZ Pilsener should already be included as a style.

A couple of quotes:

"Because [a new style emerging can be] clearly based on NZ pilsner, New Zealand style pilsners encompass exactly what you are talking about. Best example I’ve had is Croucher Pilsner, this beer is awesome other typical examples are the hugely successful Emersons Pilsner, Wanaka Beerworks Brewski, Macs Hop Rocker and of course Knappstein.

"NZ pilsner [of] which there are a number of regional definite examples. We saw plenty of them amongst the general pilsner category when judging at the AIBA this year and they stick out like dogs balls, and almost always score higher than their euro opposition."

So maybe we're looking at a possible two styles. NZ (or Southern) Pilsener, of which there are definite examples, which are being awarded (reactive to trends). And this as yet unquantified and unnamed style, which is increasingly looking to be an Ale (proactive creation of a trend not yet spread among commercial brewers, but has been among HBers).

 

[vykuza]

Appearance: Very light yellow to gold. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. Low to medium white head with fair to good retention.

Flavour: Optional light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, wheat). Caramel flavors typically absent. Moderate hop flavour, but not aggressive. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with low perceived bitterness. Clean yeast profile.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium-light body. Well attenuated. Medium to high carbonation. Smooth without harsh bitterness, carbonic bite or astringency.

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma. Medium hop aroma and can reflect almost any AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. Typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, while hop-forward, still retains balance. Fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is critical as is a thirst-quenching character.

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate).

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale, Two Birds Golden Ale, Murray's Whale Ale, Australian Brewery Pale Ale

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

For Antipodean Pilsener:

Appearance: Light Straw to Light Gold appears, brilliantly clear. White head which can linger.

Flavour: Fresh, clean, vibrant malt character, with optional light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, caramel). Moderately Low to Moderate hop flavour (but always balanced) with clean bitterness from early kettle additions and not aggressively late hopped, though with adequate use to distinguish from the Saazer type hops used in European Pilseners. No Esters.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium-light body. Well attenuated with dry mouthfeel, without being tart. High carbonation. Smooth and spritzy without harsh bitterness, carbonic bite or astringency. Not overly bitter but reflecting balance slightly towards the hops.

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma with typical pilsener malt notes. Can have some specialty malt aroma, but this must remain low. Low-Medium hop aroma and can reflect almost any AU/NZ hops, with almost any descriptor (fruity, citrus, spicy, wine-like or floral) but aroma must not overly reflect a "Saazer style" hop typical of European examples and should not dominate the malt presence. Clean fermentation profile from use of Lager yeasts. No esters.

Overall Impression: An antipodean take on a European Pilsener with Australia or New Zealand hops replacing Saazer type hops, reflective of locally available ingredients. Will likely have a low-moderate fruity palate from use of AU/NZ hops, but these do not dominate. Rather the balanced bitterness reflective of the standard pilsener style is still there, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpoweringly hoppy nor overly bitter. Sessionability is critical as is a thirst-quenching character.

Ingredients: Pilsener Malt (locally produced or imported) is used and forms the majority of the grist. If locally produced Pils malt is used, it can have a slight 'mousecage' aroma to it. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should be minimal. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Neutral Lager Yeast.

Comments: Antipodean Pils were created as an alternative to mainstream mass-produced pilseners imported from Europe, which had often had an aged quality to them and locally made "Brewed Under Licence" European Pilseners, which often lacked the softer water qualities of a Czech Pilsener. In using local hops and with a shorter distance to travel, these reflected the "fresh" quality typical of European Pilseners consumed at the source. Originally and almost exclusively used the Nelson Sauvin variety, which lent a dry, white-wine like flavour to the beer, however this variety now uses most Australian or New Zealand grown varieties (including AU/NZ Grown cascade), usually with a whole or part fruitiness in flavour.

Commercial examples: Emersons Pilsner, Wanaka Beerworks Brewski, Macs Hop Rocker, Croucher Pilsner, Knappstein Reserve Lager.

 

[drewstertherooster]

Don't know if anyone had a chance to try Mash's Summer Ale? Think it was called 'Wild Child'. That seemed to fit in well with the style. From memory it was somewhere between 4.5-5%, pale gold colour, good head retention, very fruity from Summer hops I think.

I don't know if this is something that needs to be sent off to BJCP or wherever just yet. I like the discussion and like the idea of starting to define a style based on homebrewers and commercial breweries starting to brew beers similar to S&W PA. Once there are more commercial examples and there's a strong feeling amongst homebrewers that 'this is a Pacific Ale' (or whatever it's called), then I'd think that's when we get these bodies to recognise it in their guidelines.

For the people questioning why we're bothering, I don't see what's wrong with having the discussion? Beer is constantly changing and evolving and it's nice to have this discussion to reflect on a small aspect, and an Australian aspect, of that evolution.

 

[AndrewQLD]

I have no objection to discussing or creating a new style as such, I would just prefer the results were directed firstly to the AABA/AABC which has their own set of guidelines for the Australian major State and national competitions and then if that becomes accepted and popular then a request to the BJCP/AHA body could be made to include it in their guidelines.

As the guidelines that the AABC use are not the same as the BJCP ones it makes more sense to make any change to the guidelines that are more relevant to Australian brewers first.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Good idea. Why shouldn't it go to the AABC?

But who does it? As an individual we might not have any great influence (heck the commercial brewer I spoke to has been, reading between the lines, asking for NZ Pils to be included as a separate category for a couple of years now).

<sees picture in mind> Goomba emails AABC "I reckon we should put in xyz beer as a style guidelines" AABC says "yeah, you and whose army?"

</sees>

However, if we are discussing this issue (and the diverse points of view it seems to attact) here, wouldn't the voice of a larger number of Australian Home Brewers, complete with how we arrived at a/some style/s be an option?

If nothing else comes of this discussion, why not just enjoy that we all see "Aussie Craft Brew" and the development of Home Brew in Australia from a myriad points of view?

 

[dicko]

I have no objection to discussing or creating a new style as such, I would just prefer the results were directed firstly to the AABA/AABC which has their own set of guidelines for the Australian major State and national competitions and then if that becomes accepted and popular then a request to the BJCP/AHA body could be made to include it in their guidelines.

As the guidelines that the AABC use are not the same as the BJCP ones it makes more sense to make any change to the guidelines that are more relevant to Australian brewers first.

I totally agree with AndrewQLD....keep it on our shores but broaden the existing category /s to reflect what is being brewed currently both commercially and on the HB scene.

It does seem the logical step to have the guidelines changed by our representing body to suit our region before anyone singularly tries to change the rest of the worlds thinking on beer styles.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I have no objection to discussing or creating a new style as such, I would just prefer the results were directed firstly to the AABA/AABC which has their own set of guidelines for the Australian major State and national competitions and then if that becomes accepted and popular then a request to the BJCP/AHA body could be made to include it in their guidelines.

As the guidelines that the AABC use are not the same as the BJCP ones it makes more sense to make any change to the guidelines that are more relevant to Australian brewers first.

I totally agree with AndrewQLD....keep it on our shores but broaden the existing category /s to reflect what is being brewed currently both commercially and on the HB scene.

It does seem the logical step to have the guidelines changed by our representing body to suit our region before anyone singularly tries to change the rest of the worlds thinking on beer styles.

Totally agree with both of you - I had missed that key step in the process.

I think that the BJCP change in guidelines might have prompted this thought of 'hey what do we brew' - but yeah, the Aussie body changing to what we actually brew and then they can take up any changes that they see fit with BJCP.

The BJCP to their credit do say that what they produce is a general, US-centric guide, and they can't possibly be on top of it all.

Excellent point. :chug: