Need For Cold Break?

[kiwisteveo]

making a stout at the momment using extract method with only a 6L boil is there a need to acheive a cold break?

 

[Wolfy]

When you add it to cold water to make up your full volume the 6L will cool down rapidly and essentially give you a cold break (if it's even required with a kit beer).

 

[Pennywise]

I thought the cold break was good for yeast nutrient. With my limited knowledge I say yes, get a good cold break. Happy to be proven otherwise though

 

[Wolfy]

I thought the cold break was good for yeast nutrient. With my limited knowledge I say yes, get a good cold break. Happy to be proven otherwise though

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

Cold break is something you want to remove - if possible - especially if you are making a very clean beer, not so much required in a case of a stout I guess.

 

[Nick JD]

Below are typical Hot Break, and Cold Break composition details.

[Item: HB: CB]

Particle size mm 30-80, 0.5-1.0
Typical wet weight g/hl 150-400, 5-30
Moisture % 73-85, 70-80
Proteinaceous matter degree 40-70, 45-75
Bittering substances % 10-20, n/a
Polyphenols % 5-10, 10-30
Carbohydrates % 4-8, 20-30
Ash % 3-5, 2-3
Fats % 1-2, n/a

As you can see there's not a hell of a lot of difference between the two. Probably the biggest difference (with an effect) is the Polyphenol component - and that's easy to solve with Polyclar.

Best not to have any break material in there - but if you've heard Cold=OK and Hot=Not OK, then you may have heard wrong.

 

[Pennywise]

Thanks guys, dunno how I fluffed that one up . Must have misunderstood when I was told that info previously. Hot & cold break are good, but should still be removed.

 

[MHB]

No amount of hot break improves your beer, get as much or if possible all of it out.
Personally I would do everything possible to exclude Hot break, happy to loose an extra litre or two of wort, better 20 L of good beer than 21 L of second best beer, buts that's just me.

Worrying about cold break comes from reading North American literature where a lot of the home brewing practices are derived from commercial experience (as it is here) there a lot of the commercial brewing is done with 6 row malt that has very high protein levels, I don't believe you can buy 6 row in Oz.
Cold break isn't a problem unless there are really massive amounts of it more than you can get from any malt sold in Australia in fact, and it is a yeast nutrient among other things.



MHB

 

[MHB]

Here are two relevant sections from Brewing: Science and Practice

Always best to make up your own mind

MHB

10.8 Hot wort clarification

At the end of the boil the wort should be absolutely clear (`bright') but contain,

suspended in it, the remains of hops and flocs of trub or hot break. If whole hops are

employed then the spent hops will probably weigh 0.71.4 kg/hl (2.45.0 lb./imp. brl) wet

weight and will be associated with a significant amount of wort. The trub will be in the

region of 0.210.28 kg/hl (0.751.0 lb./imp. brl) wet weight and will contain 8085%

water (Hough et al., 1982). Hot break contains roughly 5060% crude protein, 2030%

tannin, 1520% resins and 23% ash (dry wt., Andrews, 1992). Significant quantities of

lipids are also present. Flocs of trub may reach 510mm in diameter, but these can easily

be disrupted, e.g., by pumping, into particles of 2080 um diameter and a greater

exposure to shear will reduce these to particles of 0.51.5 um. The hot break should be

removed from the wort as thoroughly as possible, and this is most easily achieved with

large particles. Consequently boiled wort should be handled gently and shear should be

avoided to minimize damage to the trub.



10.10 The cold break

As the wort cools it becomes cloudy as the cold break or trub separates from solution.

This material contains about 50% protein, 1525% polyphenols and 2030% of wort

carbohydrates (see Chapter 9). Unlike the hot break this material does not flocculate, and

occurs as small particles, <1 um, in amounts reported to be 40350 mg/l. In the past

there was much interest in the temperatures at which cold break formation began and

whether it occurred more rapidly when cooling was rapid or slow (Hough et al., 1982).

The importance of cold break in brewing is disputed. There may be two main reasons for

this; firstly the break in worts from different grists may have significantly different

properties and, secondly, in some cases the cold break may be mixed with hot break that

was not completely removed and so effects attributed to the cold break are, in fact, due to

residual hot break. Some have reported that cold break has no influence on fermentation

rate or beer analyses while others report that cold break accelerates the fermentation rate

very significantly (Crompton and Hegarty, 1991; Dickel et al., 2002; Narziss et al., 1971;

Rehberger and Luther, 1994).

 

[Nick JD]

Cold break and hot break are almost exactly the same thing except hot break has a small amount of fat (bad) and cold break has a large amount of polyphenols (bad).

I leave both out :icon_cheers: . Those who rapid chill may not be able to remove the cold break as easily.

 

[Pennywise]

Thanks MHB, some interesting reading.

 

[MHB]

From Kunze 3^rd International Edition p 348

This is the conclusion to the section on cold break that outlines both the pros and cons of cold break removal.

Nowadays the cold break is not usually removed. A prerequisite for this, however, is an optimal hot break removal and fermentative yeast (assimilation yeast). With a powerful course of fermentation, a distinctive flavour, good flavour stability and good foam stability can be expected.

Worry about hot break, use a healthy yeast pitch and ignore cold break should give us better beer. As brewers its up to all of of us brew the beer we want to drink, and to find out how to get the most from our resources (equipment, ingredients and processes) along the way we make choices best to concentrate in whats really important (in this case Hot Break removal) and get on with making good beer.

MHB

 

[Bribie G]

I never remove cold break and make some very clean and clear beers. However as Nick points out, polyphenols can be removed with Polyclar - which I do. Also Isinglass AFAIK (I got no chill haze with my last lot of American Cream Ale but I did use a kilo of maize so maybe that used up some of the proteins during mashing).
Also I BIAB - which puts turbid wort into the boil - and when I've built my recirculating BIAB system to get clearer wort into the boil by introducing a grain filter bed stage, it will be interesting to see what break levels I get. And if there is less of a cold break, will it affect the finished beer one way or another.

And will I have wasted hundreds of dollars on March Pump, plumbing etc

 

[Nick JD]

I remove both hot and cold break and just pour clear wort into the fermenter. I don't see the point of having lots of crap in the brew if you can remove it.

If your equipment means it does get into your fermenter then so be it. I don't add it because all the literature I've read says it's almost exactly the same as hot break - and we all know that's bad.

YMMV as may your equipment.

 

[warra48]

I wouldn't mind removing the hot break and allowing the cold break to go into the fermenter.
However, from a practical point of view, how do I separate them in my kettle, and remove just the hot break? I use an immersion chiller.

 

[BjornJ]

I skim off as much as I can during the half an hour I boil vigorously before adding hops.

Not sure how much of the hot break this removes, but seems to be quite a bit of "goo".
Then after chilling I tap out clear wort into the fermenter, thinking that any hot break I didn;t get through skimming is now part of the trub in the bottom of the urn.
that seems to work well for me, so hoping I am removing enough of both cold and hot break :lol:

Bjorn

 

[Nick JD]

I wouldn't mind removing the hot break and allowing the cold break to go into the fermenter.
However, from a practical point of view, how do I separate them in my kettle, and remove just the hot break? I use an immersion chiller.

You could try containing your hops and when your boil has finished, covering your kettle in gladwrap and leaving it for 12-16 hours to cool. By this time, both the hot and cold break have settled to the bottom. This gives you the opportunity to remove both from your fermenter, saves water and time and effort.

I have never had an infected brew usng this method and I have no DMS issues like all those who no-chill. Maybe give it a go and see if your beer comes out better.

As always, YMMV.

 

[MHB]

Might help if we pin down some terms

Trub - Any shit in the bottom of any tank (not just a kettle), that a brewer wants to stay there when the contents of the tank are removed.

Hot Break A mixture of, well anything that was soluble in the wort, but that has become insoluble during the boil, i.e. proteins, carbohydrates, lipids and some hop products.

Cold break Anything that is dissolved in HOT wort, but which becomes insoluble as the wort cools (at about 60 ^oC)

Most people confuse Hot Break with Trub, in the case of Kettle Trub, it contains hot break along with hop debris, bits of grain and other stuff like Irish moss. After whirl-pooling and draining down it's that cone in the bottom, it contains hot break but isn't just hot break there is nothing in that trub you want in your beer. Good brewing practice will leave it all behind so it shouldn't be a problem.

Cold break hasn't generally formed at the time the wort is taken out of the kettle, as the wort cools some compounds come out of solution, but they aren't the same stuff as that which formed the hot break if they were they would have acted like the hot break material and precipitated in the kettle. (If you use an immersion chiller it may have formed but will be in suspension, it would take days to settle out)

Just looking at the Carbohydrate fraction of both break materials, sugars are a subset of carbohydrates and there are something like 2.6 million known sugars. I think it's very misleading to think that just because two fractions belong to the same group that they are the same.

Similarly for proteins, there are hundreds of millions of proteins including Botox the most poisonous substance known and Vitamin B both being proteins doesn't make them the same.

Some Polyphenols and Proteins play a big role in head formation and retention, the ones we want are in the wort or in the cold break, so unless the amounts of cold break are so large that they cause problems they are generally regarded as beneficial to the beer.

Mind you cold break is so fine and flocculent that its nearly imposable to remove with ought a centrifuge, so in most cases your getting it whether you want it or not.

If we can keep the hot break in the kettle where it belongs and ignore the cold break we're one step closer to making better beer

MHB

 

[MHB]

Sorry too slow for an edit; knew I had read a really good synopsis somewhere - found it Essays in Brewing Science Michael J. Lewis and Charles W. Bamforth Chapter 5 p 48

Breaks

The insoluble material produced during the boiling of wort is generally called "hot break," and that produced when wort is subsequently cooled is termed "cold break." There are substantial differences between these materials, not least the amount, there being up to five times more hot break than cold break in a well-run operation. Levels of cold break can be between 40 and 350 mg/l. Hot break particles flocculate, but those of cold break do not.

Particles of hot break tend to be rather larger at up to 0.8 cm in diameter, with those of cold break seldom rising above 1 mm in diameter. The proportion of polyphenol and carbohydrate tends to be greater in cold break, while that of protein is higher in hot break. Bitter acids are not found in cold break and lipid is only present in significant quantities in hot break.

Hot break formation appears to be, for the most part, a consequence of protein denaturation, with neither the bitter acids nor the Polyphenols playing a positive role in particle formation. Conversely, polyphenol oxidation and resultant cross-linking with proteins seems to impact cold break formation.

 

[Vince Burns]

I thought the cold break was good for yeast nutrient. With my limited knowledge I say yes, get a good cold break. Happy to be proven otherwise though

Cold break material is good as a yeast nutrient, but the chemicals that make up a cold break are still there if you don't do a cold break, they are just in solution. What people mean is they recommend you leave the cold break material inside the fermenter during fermentation so that they are still available to the yeast, even though they have come out of solution as 'cold break' material. Other people remove the cold break by letting it settle to the bottom and leaving it in the boil kettle when transfering the wort to the fermenter.