Mini Keg Discussion / Mods / Show Off - Dedicated Thread

[Zorco]

Well, I can report that I am would not be willing to store beer in my 5L mini-keg for more than about 4-8 hours.

Here's the comparison of the same beer. It has been in a stainless steel Keg King 19L keg for three weeks, then the mini keg was filled two weeks ago from the main keg. I did a comparison pour from the main keg and the mini-keg. Both beers are 5 weeks old, but guess which one spent two out of the five weeks in the mini-keg!

YUCK! All the flavour is gone. My advice for the mini-kegs is either avoid completely or only use to fill and dispense on the same day. I'm glad I only got one 5L keg. I think I'd be better off lugging around a half-filled 19L keg.

For me the novelty has worn off and I'll be sticking to tried and tested methods - the mini-kegs are basically reserved for a fill and take to the park at then end of the street occasions (if I can get the effing mini-reg to work properly [another fail tonight, but I'll come back to that another day[)

Not a happy camper! I feel sorry for those who dropped a lot more money on these mini-kegs than I did, because at the end of the day it's just Chinese rubbish.

One_beer_two_kegs.jpg

Hi Peter,

that doesnt look good. I can't say I've ever used a mini keg that way before. I've got an English Brown Ale coming off the yeast and I'll do the same experiment but at t=0 weeks and see what happens.

No need to stay an unhappy camper.... If there is a fault in the product then, as always, you can talk to Mark about a way forward.


Coalminer,

The regulators have been a farking pain in the ***. Mine are **** as well. Mark has worked to resolve this and it seems the new batch of regs are performing fine. I've started another thread that tries to dive into this.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/94448-problem-discussion-thread-mini-keg-regulators/

Go ahead and ask Mark about replacements.... I gather his supplier is on board.


In any case Peter, there is no point keeping at it if the mini-keg isn't working out; let me know if you don't get what you're after from Mark and maybe we could find someone interested in taking it off your hands for you.


Life's too short for feeling **** about infinitesimal things, happy to help if I can mate.

 

[Coldspace]

I've got 4 of these from last bulk buy. I've only been using 2 for weekend jobs but sometimes they come home with a few schooners left and have been fine by the next weekend. I used them at Christmas for 2 weeks filling them from main kegs at a camp site.

My other 2 haven't been used yet. I hope these are not duds. I'll be going away at Easter for 2 weeks, I'll fill all 4 up this week and leave till we go. I'll test a pot out of each one to make sure I'm not dragging crap beer away.

Good luck with it. Maybe a bad batch or something else.

 

[Jack of all biers]

ATHB, mini-keg bulk buy MK II.

However, I doubt that it makes any difference. From what I can see, all of these mini-kegs come from the same stable. The variations seem to mainly be confined to the accessories.

My BK one definitely had black film. When I first got it I cleaned with PBW then Star San the filled with beer. Beer was good that night but tasted metallic 36 hours later. Have cleaned since then with BKF and more Star San, which is when I noticed the black film. Haven't had a chance to use it since then.

Both of these products are advertised as 304 Stainless steel. That grade stainless should have enough chromium and nickel to be able to put up with the pH that beer sits at without any degradation. I would have thought that short periods in contact with the recommended concentrations of Starsan (phosphoric acid) or Sodium Percarbonate should also not cause tarnishing (ie corrosion). If this is the case, as it appears with you two, then the grade of 304 may not have been properly manufactured. I would think this is a warranty issue (ie protection under Australian consumer law) and your suppliers would be more than happy to deal with any real issues with the product. It may well be a case of a bad batch of stainless used in a batch of kegs and in that case they may have to recall that batch and sort it out with the manufacturers. I do know that the use of chlorine (not suggesting anyone here has done this) will cause blackening, so if this was used that would be user error.

EDIT - Just found this site which gave me an idea. What is the chloride and sodium levels or your water/beer?

The two most common stainless steel grades are 304 and 316. The key difference is the addition of molybdenum—an alloy which drastically enhances corrosion resistance, especially for more saline or chloride-exposed environments. 316 stainless steel contains molybdenum, but 304 doesn’t.

AND;

Solutions with as little as 25 ppm of sodium chloride can begin to have a corrosive effect.

Further info here

 

[peteru]

Just to clarify, the things I am not happy about is how fiddly the regulator is (probably a dud) and the fact that the beer I took with me last night ended up being sub-standard. My usual use case for the minikeg is to fill just before leaving for an event and drinking within a few hours, which seems to be fine. I know people who want to store beer in these for prolonged periods of time - I don't think they are suitable for that. I think owning one or two of these minikegs is fine if you intend to fill and drink within a day. Having half a dozen and cellaring beer in them could lead to (very expensive) tears.

This is not the first batch of beer, but it is the first time that the beer has been in the minikeg for more than 24 hours. I've had at least 6 batches go through, and this was the palest beer. Maris Otter and Columbus SMaSH.

Cleaning process was simple. When the minikeg arrived, I used hot tap water and normal dishwashing detergent (Morning Fresh) to wash everything. Rinsed with filtered tap water, then gave it a 15 minute soak of one teaspoon 100% sodium percarbonate to 5L luke warm water. Rinsed thoroughly with filtered tap water again and added about 30mL of Keg King phosphoric sanitiser diluted at a rate of 1.5mL per litre of filtered water. Shook for about 30 seconds, then drained the sanitiser. Filled with filtered water and expelled water using CO2.

The usual cleaning regime is to rinse minikeg with hot tap water and drain upside down overnight, then store opened so it can dry out properly. I usually smell the minikeg after it has been drained overnight. If I can detect any beer smell, I'll soak for 10 minutes with a fairly weak sodium percarbonate solution, rinse and drain again. When filling the keg, I just spray a bit of diluted StarSan, rinse, fill with filtered tap water, expel the water using CO2, then transfer beer using beer-to-beer disconnects while using the PRV to control the fill level.

 

[goatchop41]

Well, I can report that I am would not be willing to store beer in my 5L mini-keg for more than about 4-8 hours.

Here's the comparison of the same beer. It has been in a stainless steel Keg King 19L keg for three weeks, then the mini keg was filled two weeks ago from the main keg. I did a comparison pour from the main keg and the mini-keg. Both beers are 5 weeks old, but guess which one spent two out of the five weeks in the mini-keg!

YUCK! All the flavour is gone. My advice for the mini-kegs is either avoid completely or only use to fill and dispense on the same day. I'm glad I only got one 5L keg. I think I'd be better off lugging around a half-filled 19L keg.

For me the novelty has worn off and I'll be sticking to tried and tested methods - the mini-kegs are basically reserved for a fill and take to the park at then end of the street occasions (if I can get the effing mini-reg to work properly [another fail tonight, but I'll come back to that another day[)

Not a happy camper! I feel sorry for those who dropped a lot more money on these mini-kegs than I did, because at the end of the day it's just Chinese rubbish.

One_beer_two_kegs.jpg

I left a mid strength belgian blonde in one of my 5L jobbies from ATHB for about 2 months, and certainly didnt have this problem. Closed transferred while cold from one of my 19L kegs, then took it on an interstate trip with some mates. I completely forgot about it in the back of the motor home for 2 weeks, in which time it would have probably reached ~30oC once or twice. Put it in the fridge when I got home, then grabbed it out at the start of this month to drink with my mates. There was a metallic twang to it (not overriding, actually reminded me of the metallic note that most macro Aussie lagers have), but no change in colour, no loss of flavour (being yeast-derived flavours, not hoppy) to speak of.

 

[barls]

Just to clarify, the things I am not happy about is how fiddly the regulator is (probably a dud) and the fact that the beer I took with me last night ended up being sub-standard. My usual use case for the minikeg is to fill just before leaving for an event and drinking within a few hours, which seems to be fine. I know people who want to store beer in these for prolonged periods of time - I don't think they are suitable for that. I think owning one or two of these minikegs is fine if you intend to fill and drink within a day. Having half a dozen and cellaring beer in them could lead to (very expensive) tears.

This is not the first batch of beer, but it is the first time that the beer has been in the minikeg for more than 24 hours. I've had at least 6 batches go through, and this was the palest beer. Maris Otter and Columbus SMaSH.

Cleaning process was simple. When the minikeg arrived, I used hot tap water and normal dishwashing detergent (Morning Fresh) to wash everything. Rinsed with filtered tap water, then gave it a 15 minute soak of one teaspoon 100% sodium percarbonate to 5L luke warm water. Rinsed thoroughly with filtered tap water again and added about 30mL of Keg King phosphoric sanitiser diluted at a rate of 1.5mL per litre of filtered water. Shook for about 30 seconds, then drained the sanitiser. Filled with filtered water and expelled water using CO2.

The usual cleaning regime is to rinse minikeg with hot tap water and drain upside down overnight, then store opened so it can dry out properly. I usually smell the minikeg after it has been drained overnight. If I can detect any beer smell, I'll soak for 10 minutes with a fairly weak sodium percarbonate solution, rinse and drain again. When filling the keg, I just spray a bit of diluted StarSan, rinse, fill with filtered tap water, expel the water using CO2, then transfer beer using beer-to-beer disconnects while using the PRV to control the fill level.

I've got to disagree. I've left beer in mine for well over 3 months. no metallic twang.
i tsped mine when i first got them and then star saned to stabilise them.
I've taken them to the isb meeting and had nobody pick up any off flavours well apart from one beer but that was a brett thing.
i found the reg much better than the other gas charger that i had.

 

[Batz]

I've got to disagree. I've left beer in mine for well over 3 months. no metallic twang.
i tsped mine when i first got them and then star saned to stabilise them.
I've taken them to the isb meeting and had nobody pick up any off flavours well apart from one beer but that was a brett thing.
i found the reg much better than the other gas charger that i had.

Thank you Barls I was starting to think I was going batty.....more batty perhaps?

I've been reading this thread and was about to post my findings as well. I own 4x5lt kegs and one 2lt.

Now I have only used 2 of the 5lt, both these had beer in them for 4-5 days (that's the longest ATM)
I have not had off flavours or any discoloration. The 2 lt I filled with water and capped, after two weeks the water tastes fine.
I washed new kegs with detergent first then sodium perc. Two regulators and both are good, I have been sent a few that are totally u/s where though. (these were for my fault finding experiments)


I believe if you have a problem it is a warranty issue, contact your retailer. I'm sure the retailers used through this forum will be very responsive to your issues.

Batz

 

[Zorco]

Peteru is a clever man, and his kegs are firmly from the same metal batch MKII recipients received.

If not the steel, then what else could be going on?

I've got no idea, but disagreement with a smart person's subjective experience doesn't do anything.

Is there a way to add a solution to an empty clean keg that can leach metal molecules out and then process that fluid to quantify the level of contaminant?

Is it as simple as first pour with yeast pickup and other trub? Too obvious... but trying to explore scientifically.

I wish I studied advanced chemistry... you should see my YouTube subscriptions.

Zorco

 

[peekaboo_jones]

Hey brewers,

I've had good results with my kegs. I generally bottle in PET and this has been a good novelty/upgrade for me.
Done a few kegs now. No bad taste same as bottles.

First one I force carbonated with good results but used 2 bulbs to carb and serve a 5L keg.
Since then I've naturally carbonated with about 50-60 g of white sugar, conditioned at room temperature for 2 weeks.
Currently serving with one bulb and the cheap plastic picnic tap or whatever they are called. Set to 5psi and then start pouring turn off pressure and serve till glass is full. Happy days

It's a shame there a few problems though for others. Hope it works out for you soon.

FYI this beer is a kit based Saison that had 10g rock salt solution added post yeast pitch.

My gear was purchased with bulk buy 3.

 

[barls]

Peteru is a clever man, and his kegs are firmly from the same metal batch MKII recipients received.

If not the steel, then what else could be going on?

I've got no idea, but disagreement with a smart person's subjective experience doesn't do anything.

Is there a way to add a solution to an empty clean keg that can leach metal molecules out and then process that fluid to quantify the level of contaminant?

Is it as simple as first pour with yeast pickup and other trub? Too obvious... but trying to explore scientifically.

I wish I studied advanced chemistry... you should see my YouTube subscriptions.

Zorco

i have kegs from the 1st and second buy

 

[Zorco]

Me too. Was Peteru's cleaners or sanitiser different, was it infection, has he done it deliberately, did his mini keg experience a different environment that catalysed the change in his photo, was it god, did too much residual cleaner do that to his second beer.

I didn't discount your experience, mine is similar. I'm only probing Peter's.

I'm just asking friggin' questions to investigate methodically. But I'm not knowledgable enough to know how to ask all the best questions within a chemistry focus.


beer is my alt learning journey.
LC
Klang
Doc
Mark

Cheers

Edit: redundant crap removed

 

[Batz]

If not the steel, then what else could be going on?

I've got no idea, but disagreement with a smart person's subjective experience doesn't do anything.

Zorco

I was not disagreeing with a smart person at all. Not even a dumb fu%k...wait... yes I do disagree with myself at times. :blink: :blink:

Just posting my findings.

Hope all works out well.for all.

 

[Zorco]

Ohhh Batz, glad you think it's about you..

I've got to disagree.

 

[Batz]

Ohhh Batz, glad you think it's about you..

thank you.............

 

[Zorco]

THB, I only recently came across that gif...

Gives me those love........feelings.....

:icon_chickcheers:

 

[Jack of all biers]

What were your Cl levels for that brew Peteru?

304 SS
Corrosion Resistance
Excellent in a wide range of atmospheric environments and many corrosive media. Subject to pitting and crevice corrosion in warm chloride environments, and to stress corrosion cracking above about 60°C. Considered resistant to potable water with up to about 200mg/L chlorides at ambient temperatures, reducing to about 150mg/L at 60°C.

Do any of the welds on your mini keg appear to be 'sugared'. See pics for sugared welds. It may have been cleaned up on the outside, but not thoroughly on the inside and there may be tell tale signs (when the workforce are paid a pittance they may not know or care about the inside which is hard to QC). Sugaring of stainless can lead to 'Intergranular corrosion'. If this sugaring occurred on the welds at the factory and wasn't cleaned properly, then it could lead to black corrosion type material entering solution (ie your beer).


Read this to see about different corrosion on 304 SS inclduing 'intergranular corrosion'.

Sugared SS


internal can look like this when external looks fine.

 

[Batz]

internal can look like this when external looks fine.

That's how I remove an inner bearing race
as well.

But perhaps we shouldn't go there..

 

[Zorco]

What were your Cl levels for that brew Peteru?

304 SS
Corrosion Resistance
Excellent in a wide range of atmospheric environments and many corrosive media. Subject to pitting and crevice corrosion in warm chloride environments, and to stress corrosion cracking above about 60°C. Considered resistant to potable water with up to about 200mg/L chlorides at ambient temperatures, reducing to about 150mg/L at 60°C.

Do any of the welds on your mini keg appear to be 'sugared'. See pics for sugared welds. It may have been cleaned up on the outside, but not thoroughly on the inside and there may be tell tale signs (when the workforce are paid a pittance they may not know or care about the inside which is hard to QC). Sugaring of stainless can lead to 'Intergranular corrosion'. If this sugaring occurred on the welds at the factory and wasn't cleaned properly, then it could lead to black corrosion type material entering solution (ie your beer).


Read this to see about different corrosion on 304 SS inclduing 'intergranular corrosion'.

Sugared SS

Figure-8-Sugaring-on-stainless-steel-90x90.jpg

internal can look like this when external looks fine.

GATW_Root.jpg

That's f$cking interesting.

 

[peteru]

What were your Cl levels for that brew Peteru?

I'm brewing with untreated Sydney water from Ryde. The water analysis has Chloride at 25.0-35.5 mg/L

Do any of the welds on your mini keg appear to be 'sugared'.

I think you may be onto something here. The top of the minikeg, where the conical section meets the cylinder with the thread, has a suspect weld. This keg was lying down, so this suspect weld would have been exposed to the beer.

 

[barls]

I'm brewing with untreated Sydney water from Ryde. The water analysis has Chloride at 25.0-35.5 mg/L

so am i peter, so i think we can say its not the water
I'm going to have a good look at mine tomorrow mate when i get a chance