Marzen/oktoberfest

[NeilArge]

Hi Doc
I'm just using the Charlie Papazian lauter tun for the time being - bucket in a bucket. I did recycle several litres of the first runnings before beginning the sparge - don't know if that helps. Also, I could fit all the mash (about 2 cups left in the mash tun) in my lauter tun at once - had to wait until I'd sparged for a while before I could add that in.

Thanks and cheers

ToG

I think you nailed it in your last sentence. Dependant on your false bottom in your mash tun, a 30 min sparge is a bit fast (esp if fly sparging).
If you are batch sparging you'd be fine (assuming your mash tun design is ok). If you were attempting batch sparging, did you remix the grain in the mash tun after adding more HL ?

Doc

 

[NeilArge]

Hi Steve

The wort would have been c. 20C. when I did the OG reading into the fermenter. I did an OG reading of the wort going into the boiler and that was only 1.030 (but I acknowledge that temp. would have been an issue there too).
No whole grain in the mash - quite a nice porridge. I am starting to get the feeling that I may have to make the step to a full rubbermaid style mashtun with false bottom, instead of the insulated bucket I am currently using, even though it seems to hold the temp. okay, and scrap the 'zapap' lauter tun as well. Running into some capacity problems. False economy maybe?

Like you say though, Steve, I am still excited about this beer....

Cheers

ToG

Been there , done that bud. First thing, what temp was the wort when you took your OG reading? If your hydrometer is calibrated at 15 deg C it would make a diff of about 8 points or so if it was at 25 deg C. Now, as Doc said, was there any whole /uncracked grain left after the sparge? And for me, after 12 months of brewing trying everthing to raise my eff. the one thing that got me up from 60% to 75%-80% was getting a vessel similar to a s/s keg and putting a s/s false bottom in it. Now I can crush as fine as I want without any stuck sparging. I would argue that if your not hitting at least 70% eff. most of the time and your doing most other thing correctly , look at your mash tun.
But it will probably be the best beer u ever done.

Steve

 

[bconnery]

Hmm, my latest Helles used the same yeast Ben after the liquid yeast I pitched didn't take off (that was my fault but it is another story :angry: ). I am not a great fan of 34/70 but it was all the local brewshop had at the time.
Curious to see what your grainbill was? Mine is still lagering.

C&B
TDA

TDA, My grain bill was recalculated on the day due to a shortage of pilsner malt (It was originally intended to be a german pilsner...).
It isn't quite a Helles and isn't quite a Dortmunder but it was a nice malty lager with a little hop bite.
For a recipe that was thrown together due to grain availability I was very happy...

I hadn't been a fan of 34/70 in kit/extract days but thought I'd give it a stab now that I had proper temp control.
It took longer to come good than the s189 beers but it was lovely in the end.

1800.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 40.00 %
1800.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 40.00 %
900.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 %
25.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (40 min) Hops 22.8 IBU
30.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (10 min) Hops 11.3 IBU

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

TDA, My grain bill was recalculated on the day due to a shortage of pilsner malt (It was originally intended to be a german pilsner...).
It isn't quite a Helles and isn't quite a Dortmunder but it was a nice malty lager with a little hop bite.
For a recipe that was thrown together due to grain availability I was very happy...

I hadn't been a fan of 34/70 in kit/extract days but thought I'd give it a stab now that I had proper temp control.
It took longer to come good than the s189 beers but it was lovely in the end.

1800.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 40.00 %
1800.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 40.00 %
900.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 %
25.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (40 min) Hops 22.8 IBU
30.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (10 min) Hops 11.3 IBU

Cheers Ben.

The 34/70 has left mine tatsing a little on the underbittered side (only went for 22IBU IIRC). I am hoping that carbonation will balance it out somewhat.
On topic I used the same yeast in an Oktoberfest last year and was underwhelmed in comparison to the liquid lager yeasts I usually use in this style.

C&B
TDA

 

[bconnery]

Cheers Ben.

The 34/70 has left mine tatsing a little on the underbittered side (only went for 22IBU IIRC). I am hoping that carbonation will balance it out somewhat.
On topic I used the same yeast in an Oktoberfest last year and was underwhelmed in comparison to the liquid lager yeasts I usually use in this style.

C&B
TDA

I went a little higher as I thought the combination of the maltier and sweeter munich and vienna malts would warrant it.
Plus I think I may have been looking to use the last of those hops too possibly.

 

[NeilArge]

Drats, TDA! I'll have to invest in a decent liquid yeast next time... My Munich Helles is only a week in the bottle using a cultured Saflager yeast, so I can't comment yet on what profile that has left the beer with.

On topic a bit, would a Rubbermaid style tun with false bottom make that much difference to mash efficiency compared to what I am bumbling away with?

ToG

Cheers Ben.

The 34/70 has left mine tatsing a little on the underbittered side (only went for 22IBU IIRC). I am hoping that carbonation will balance it out somewhat.
On topic I used the same yeast in an Oktoberfest last year and was underwhelmed in comparison to the liquid lager yeasts I usually use in this style.

C&B
TDA

 

[BoilerBoy]

On topic a bit, would a Rubbermaid style tun with false bottom make that much difference to mash efficiency compared to what I am bumbling away with?

ToG

Its not so much the esky you use that will effect efficiency, but the quality of the crush and your sparging method.

What mill are you using?

I would give batch sparging a go if your confident that your crush is ok, 70-75% should be achievable from draining the first runnings and then stirring in the sparge water, but its the grain crush that is crucial.

Cheers,
BB

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

This Marzen is soooo good.
Zwickel you would come back to WA for this one. Just as you like it , simple grain bill.
53% Wey Vienna
41.5% Wey Munich Dark (Type II)
2.1 % Wey Cara Munich Type 1
3.4 % Wey Acid malt ( to adjust for my water)
Hops
Styrian Goldings @ 60 mins (as used in an old original German recipe)
Hallertau @ 20 mins (personal choice)
IBU 24
Wyeast 2633 Octoberfest blend.

GB

 

[NeilArge]

Its not so much the esky you use that will effect efficiency, but the quality of the crush and your sparging method.

What mill are you using?

Hi BB

I used a Marga for the first time on the weekend - my previous posts in this thread and in one on grain mills shows what the crush looked like. I'm told that it looked good. Maybe there could have been more flour, but every grain was crushed, and fell into two or three bits. I suspect the bucket-in-a-bucket method I am using for lautering needs a much finer crush as I am struggling to stop the damn thing from draining quickly, and the top bucket is nearly full once I tip the mash in (i.e. deep grain bed). I was reading on the BeerSmith forum last night that extra hot sparge temps. help in extracting more points, but I can't remember the temps. cited (in Fahrenheit anyway).

Cheers
ToG

 

[newguy]

Mashout is typically at about 167F/75C. The higher temps do help with efficiency. The bucket in a bucket "zapap" lauter tun didn't work for me at all when I first started AG. I had the opposite problem with it: every batch was stuck.

 

[NeilArge]

It's only been a couple of days since I pitched W34/70 into my marzen-style lager but I can tell it doesn't like the cold that much. I've had it out in the shed where it has been sitting c. a mean temp. of 7-8 C, but there has been little activity. By the end of the day once the ambient temp. has lifted there is more activity in the airlock but I've had to bring the whole thing inside to get it going (temp. in back bathroom is c. 10 C). Makes me think I should have cultured up a lager from one of my earlier brews sitting in the shed, which has worked under the punishing Armidale conditions....
Cheers

ToG

 

[NeilArge]

Mashout is typically at about 167F/75C. The higher temps do help with efficiency. The bucket in a bucket "zapap" lauter tun didn't work for me at all when I first started AG. I had the opposite problem with it: every batch was stuck.

Yes, I've wondered if I have too many holes in my lauter tun, or they're the wrong diameter, but I did follow CP's instructions closely. I think I'll just try a finer crush and better control over the sparge water going in and the liquor going into the boiler (i.e. more hose clamps).

Cheers

ToG

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

It's only been a couple of days since I pitched W34/70 into my marzen-style lager but I can tell it doesn't like the cold that much. I've had it out in the shed where it has been sitting c. a mean temp. of 7-8 C, but there has been little activity. By the end of the day once the ambient temp. has lifted there is more activity in the airlock but I've had to bring the whole thing inside to get it going (temp. in back bathroom is c. 10 C). Makes me think I should have cultured up a lager from one of my earlier brews sitting in the shed, which has worked under the punishing Armidale conditions....
Cheers

ToG

ToG, how much yeast did you pitch and what temperature did you pitch it at?
Not totally experienced with dry lager yeasts but the 3 times I have used them I have pitched two sachets at temperatures of 12C twice and 17C. The two that I pitched at 12C fired up within 12 hours. The one I pitched at 17C (S189) I am still waiting for action as I only pitched it into a wort last night.
If you have any experience with liquid yeast I can send you a sample and you could try and build it up for your next attempt.

C&B
TDA

 

[NeilArge]

ToG, how much yeast did you pitch and what temperature did you pitch it at?
Not totally experienced with dry lager yeasts but the 3 times I have used them I have pitched two sachets at temperatures of 12C twice and 17C. The two that I pitched at 12C fired up within 12 hours. The one I pitched at 17C (S189) I am still waiting for action as I only pitched it into a wort last night.
If you have any experience with liquid yeast I can send you a sample and you could try and build it up for your next attempt.

C&B
TDA

Hi TDA

I pitched two sachets, cultured up and rehydrated in two brown long necks the day before. I pitched them at 15C (wort temp.) and by the next morning there was activity . But whenever I have checked in the morning (and it gets down to single digit figures in the shed) there is nothing. So, bringing it into the bathroom next door has seen it lift its game. But the helles I made a month ago went well and was just a saflager yeast cultured up from a lager I made late last year. Funny. Anyway, thanks for the offer but all seems to be going okay now. I guess I can't be 100% sure that some CO2 hasn't been pushing past the airlock either. If it wasn't too much hassle or expense (I'd repay you somehow!) it'd be great to get a liquid lager yeast. I have used starters before, so no drama there.

Cheers

ToG

 

[Steve Lacey]

ToG, I'd certainly be looking for a location where the temp is closer to 10 than 7 and where the diurnal temp fluctuations are evened out by some thick walls.

Which part of Armidale are you in? I have many happy memories of my 4 years at uni there and a further year living and working on Newholme out in the shadow of Mt Duval...a far cry from metropolitan Tokyo, I can tell you ... sorry, not meaning to hijack the thread. Is the Wicklow still standing?

 

[NeilArge]

Hi Steve

I think I may have just slightly unfairly maligned 34/70. It's now bubbling away steadily at an ambient 10C in the bathroom, and that is where I will keep it. So, my fault .
Always great to hear from a fellow (ex) Armidalian! I live on South Hill (not the posh part though...). What did you study? I lecture up at the uni (known locally as 'malfunction junction').

The Wicklow is still standing and serving a peculiar variety of beers on tap, not that I get there much (too much truly excellent home brew to drink :lol: ). What are you doing in Tokyo (pm if you like).

Cheers

ToG

quote name='Steve Lacey' date='May 28 2008, 12:13 PM' post='318886']
ToG, I'd certainly be looking for a location where the temp is closer to 10 than 7 and where the diurnal temp fluctuations are evened out by some thick walls.

Which part of Armidale are you in? I have many happy memories of my 4 years at uni there and a further year living and working on Newholme out in the shadow of Mt Duval...a far cry from metropolitan Tokyo, I can tell you ... sorry, not meaning to hijack the thread. Is the Wicklow still standing?
[/quote]