Marzen/oktoberfest

[NeilArge]

Thanks for that, Duff. Should've done a bit more homework I guess... Methinks I might have to change the name of the topic to 'dark lager' . But all this advice just makes me keener to try this all again... next winter!

Thanks

ToG

ToG,

Good info in the style of the week thread located here

Cheers.

 

[blackbock]

I agree with SJW that having Pils malt as the main base grain is not ideal. I think you really need to get some Vienna in there, or at least up the proportion of Munich. That would also allow you to ditch the choc. It just doesn't seem right adjusting for colour in a Mrzen.

Regarding the S189, I'm never using it again. For a lager yeast it gives me no good feelings on my tastebuds

 

[SJW]

Regarding the S189, I'm never using it again. For a lager yeast it gives me no good feelings on my tastebuds

Interesting. R U sure there was no infection? S189 (IMO) is not a "good feeling" yeast. Its profile is neutral. Its comments like that, that make me think I should go back to liquid yeast again for a brew or 2 to see what I am missing.

Steve

 

[BoilerBoy]

Thanks BB. I'm gonna drop the dry hopping and beef up the later additions as you suggest (weights to depend on AAUs, etc.). I'm planning on using two packets of S-189.

Cheers

ToG

I thought you were going liquid, My first choice for a maltier style lager would be Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager, its fantastic for rich malty lagers.
TDA passed on to me a sample of WL833 (thankyou) which smells quite similar to WY2206, I've currently got it going in a maibock at the moment, cant wait to make a comparison.

BB

 

[NeilArge]

BB

In an ideal world I would go a liquid yeast, but living in regional Australia makes that choice a bit problematic at times. It takes quite a while to get here and so isn't cold. It's dearer, and while I could culture up half a dozen starters for other brews I don't have the fridge space to keep even more starters (Still got a few american ale starters in the fridge that the missus is threatening to chuck out :angry: ). So, sorry for the whinge, but in the end I went for convenience. But I'll bear that strain in mind when I make a 'real' Oktoberfest next year.

Cheers

ToG

I thought you were going liquid, My first choice for a maltier style lager would be Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager, its fantastic for rich malty lagers.
TDA passed on to me a sample of WL833 (thankyou) which smells quite similar to WY2206, I've currently got it going in a maibock at the moment, cant wait to make a comparison.

BB

 

[BoilerBoy]

BB

In an ideal world I would go a liquid yeast, but living in regional Australia makes that choice a bit problematic at times. It takes quite a while to get here and so isn't cold. It's dearer, and while I could culture up half a dozen starters for other brews I don't have the fridge space to keep even more starters (Still got a few american ale starters in the fridge that the missus is threatening to chuck out :angry: ). So, sorry for the whinge, but in the end I went for convenience. But I'll bear that strain in mind when I make a 'real' Oktoberfest next year.

Cheers

ToG

Yes, I see how that would be a problem, Good luck with it! :beer:

Cheers,
BB

 

[NeilArge]

BB and others,

What would suggest for a mashing regime for this beer? I was planning a temperature step mash (no more than 3 steps) but am I making a rod for my own back? I have one of those keg-like boilers and a reasonably good if improvised mash tun (holds 25 litres).

Cheers

Neil

Yes, I see how that would be a problem, Good luck with it! :beer:

Cheers,
BB

 

[NeilArge]

Thanks blackbock. I'll try and up the munich but I guess I hadn't realised that choc malt was just for colour.

Cheers

ToG

I agree with SJW that having Pils malt as the main base grain is not ideal. I think you really need to get some Vienna in there, or at least up the proportion of Munich. That would also allow you to ditch the choc. It just doesn't seem right adjusting for colour in a Mrzen.

Regarding the S189, I'm never using it again. For a lager yeast it gives me no good feelings on my tastebuds

 

[BoilerBoy]

BB and others,

What would suggest for a mashing regime for this beer? I was planning a temperature step mash (no more than 3 steps) but am I making a rod for my own back? I have one of those keg-like boilers and a reasonably good if improvised mash tun (holds 25 litres).

Cheers

Neil

I generally do a 20min 52-55C protein rest, then 60 min at 65-66, but a single infusion would be fine, it depends on what your hoping to obtain by doing 3 steps? does that include a mashout?

BB

 

[NeilArge]

HI BB

That's kinda what I was planning (from memory). Yes, the third step would be the mash out, perhaps by doing a decoction (might be pushing the envelope on my 3rd brew? :huh: ). I'm just keen to up my efficiency and extraction rates.

Cheers

ToG

I generally do a 20min 52-55C protein rest, then 60 min at 65-66, but a single infusion would be fine, it depends on what your hoping to obtain by doing 3 steps? does that include a mashout?

BB

 

[bconnery]

ToG,
w34/70 goes quite well in a malty lager in my experience of one beer...
I did a Helles kind of beer with it recently and was very happy with the result.

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

ToG,
w34/70 goes quite well in a malty lager in my experience of one beer...
I did a Helles kind of beer with it recently and was very happy with the result.

Hmm, my latest Helles used the same yeast Ben after the liquid yeast I pitched didn't take off (that was my fault but it is another story :angry: ). I am not a great fan of 34/70 but it was all the local brewshop had at the time.
Curious to see what your grainbill was? Mine is still lagering.

ToG, you could quite easily do a single decoction, not overly hard and would add no more than 30-40 minutes to your brewday.
Should give you more malt backbone however maybe not necessary as you have a % of Melanoidin in your grainbill.
I brewed an Oktoberfest on the weekend with 1% Melanoidin and did a single decoction so it will be interesting to see how it finishes up, I hope for maltiness up the wahzoo !
I have no experience with S189 so don't know how malty your beer would turn out using this yeast.

C&B
TDA

 

[SJW]

What would suggest for a mashing regime for this beer? I was planning a temperature step mash (no more than 3 steps) but am I making a rod for my own back? I have one of those keg-like boilers and a reasonably good if improvised mash tun (holds 25 litres).

Cheers

Neil

I do a protein rest (although its not really required) at 52 for 20 mins then just hit 66 or 67 for 60 to 90 mins, with all that vienna and Munich.

Steve

 

[blackbock]

I do a protein rest (although its not really required) at 52 for 20 mins then just hit 66 or 67 for 60 to 90 mins, with all that vienna and Munich.

Steve

Traditionally the sparge for an Oktoberfest is also extremely slow, almost on the scale of hours rather than minutes.
From what I've heard this can help with improving the resultant wort. ToG I reckon your recipe is looking pretty good, if you take some tips from the lagernuts on AHB it will be even better.

You'll always remember your first Mrzen (even if it's for the wrong reasons!)

SJW, please don't misunderstand my opinion of S189 - it just wasn't what I look for in a lager yeast. Somehow doesn't taste as clean as W34/70 (but not as boring either)

 

[NeilArge]

Ta TDA. I'll try a single decoction just to finish off and just for the thrill . BTW, I bottled that Helles that was somewhat inspired by yours and Ben's recipe last week. It lagered for c. 5-6 weeks before hand at c. 8 C. Can't wait to try it.

Cheers

Neil

Hmm, my latest Helles used the same yeast Ben after the liquid yeast I pitched didn't take off (that was my fault but it is another story :angry: ). I am not a great fan of 34/70 but it was all the local brewshop had at the time.
Curious to see what your grainbill was? Mine is still lagering.

ToG, you could quite easily do a single decoction, not overly hard and would add no more than 30-40 minutes to your brewday.
Should give you more malt backbone however maybe not necessary as you have a % of Melanoidin in your grainbill.
I brewed an Oktoberfest on the weekend with 1% Melanoidin and did a single decoction so it will be interesting to see how it finishes up, I hope for maltiness up the wahzoo !
I have no experience with S189 so don't know how malty your beer would turn out using this yeast.

C&B
TDA

 

[NeilArge]

Hi Blackbock,

I have certainly learnt a lot from this forum already on what I thought was going to be a Marzen/Oktoberfest. I am fly sparging and so can drag that out as you suggest. Unfortunately, I'll have to leave most of the tweaking (i.e. trying Munich/Vienna dominant grain bills) until next time, as I am just trying to make the best of what's around at the mo and our local HBS is a might light on for ingredients. And the making will still all be great fun, and I might even get a drinakble beer at the end of it.... . One final thing: I gather no-one would put carapils in this?

Cheers

ToG

Traditionally the sparge for an Oktoberfest is also extremely slow, almost on the scale of hours rather than minutes.
From what I've heard this can help with improving the resultant wort. ToG I reckon your recipe is looking pretty good, if you take some tips from the lagernuts on AHB it will be even better.

You'll always remember your first Mrzen (even if it's for the wrong reasons!)

SJW, please don't misunderstand my opinion of S189 - it just wasn't what I look for in a lager yeast. Somehow doesn't taste as clean as W34/70 (but not as boring either)

 

[NeilArge]

bconnery
I have a couple of sachets of W34/70 on the way to me for this beer, so that's good. I intend rehydrating them before pitching.

Cheers

ToG

ToG,
w34/70 goes quite well in a malty lager in my experience of one beer...
I did a Helles kind of beer with it recently and was very happy with the result.

 

[NeilArge]

Well, just finished putting this baby down, after quite a few changes to the original plan. Did a single infusion at 68C for 90 minutes (probably averaged a degree below this). Did a mash out and then an unexpectedly fly sparge - all over in 30 mins. despite trying to keep it slow. 90 minute boil and 21 litres in the fermenter. A lovely looking and aromatic wort but I am a bit disappointed with the final figures: 1040 into the fermenter. Using a measure for mash efficiency I found in an earlier thread this works out at 47.4% mash efficiency (4.6 kg grain). Any ideas where I might be going wrong? I got what I thought was a good crush (attached) and everything else seemed to be okay (though the sparge was a bit quick).

Cheers

ToG

 

[Doc]

Did a single infusion at 68C for 90 minutes (probably averaged a degree below this).
.... an unexpectedly fly sparge - all over in 30 mins.
90 minute boil and 21 litres in the fermenter. A
Using a measure for mash efficiency I found in an earlier thread this works out at 47.4% mash efficiency (4.6 kg grain).
Any ideas where I might be going wrong?
I got what I thought was a good crush (attached) and everything else seemed to be okay (though the sparge was a bit quick).

I think you nailed it in your last sentence. Dependant on your false bottom in your mash tun, a 30 min sparge is a bit fast (esp if fly sparging).
If you are batch sparging you'd be fine (assuming your mash tun design is ok). If you were attempting batch sparging, did you remix the grain in the mash tun after adding more HL ?

Doc

 

[SJW]

1040 into the fermenter. Using a measure for mash efficiency I found in an earlier thread this works out at 47.4% mash efficiency (4.6 kg grain). Any ideas where I might be going wrong?

Been there , done that bud. First thing, what temp was the wort when you took your OG reading? If your hydrometer is calibrated at 15 deg C it would make a diff of about 8 points or so if it was at 25 deg C. Now, as Doc said, was there any whole /uncracked grain left after the sparge? And for me, after 12 months of brewing trying everthing to raise my eff. the one thing that got me up from 60% to 75%-80% was getting a vessel similar to a s/s keg and putting a s/s false bottom in it. Now I can crush as fine as I want without any stuck sparging. I would argue that if your not hitting at least 70% eff. most of the time and your doing most other thing correctly , look at your mash tun.
But it will probably be the best beer u ever done.

Steve