Low dissolved oxygen brewing techniques

[good4whatAlesU]

There's a bit of mixed data in the literature. This is an old article from the 70's, the guys were looking at ways of degassing water for use in a Liquid Chromatograph (Dell'Ova V.E. et al (1974) "Ultrasonic Degasser for Use in Liquid Chromatography")

They suggested "it can be seen that a fifteen minute ultrasonic degassing is equivalent to boiling water for six hours"

.. but they used rather an elaborate rig.

 

[Adr_0]

And how quick would baker's yeast be? I have boiled water and purged through my lines and into my mash tun with steam, and let it sit in my HLT for 1-2hrs to let it come down to temperature.

Any issues with baker's yeast and sugars in the mash?

 

[Futur]

And how quick would baker's yeast be? I have boiled water and purged through my lines and into my mash tun with steam, and let it sit in my HLT for 1-2hrs to let it come down to temperature.
Any issues with baker's yeast and sugars in the mash?

This has been experimented with in detail over at the GBF. Looking at about an hour to an hour and a half. I've been able to repeat the results found in the thread below.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

Some say the yeast in the mash imparts a flavour, others say it doesn't. I haven't personally noticed any off flavours by utilising this method.

 

[Adr_0]

This has been experimented with in detail over at the GBF. Looking at about an hour to an hour and a half. I've been able to repeat the results found in the thread below. http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355
Some say the yeast in the mash imparts a flavour, others say it doesn't. I haven't personally noticed any off flavours by utilising this method.

That's awesome. I've only read a few pages in... Was it clarified whether dextrose was used or DME? From experiment 1 to 2 he(she?) halved the yeast amount to promote growth, but the sugar appeared to switch to DME.

 

[Adr_0]

Although it looks like the "1/2 yeast" test isn't as fast or effective as the other tests.

An article on making a 'zero' solution for DO meters suggests a tablespoon of active dried yeast with one tablespoon sugar, in 500mL water... Which gets it down to 0.0063mg/L. This is... Quite a lot.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://in-situ.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/RDO-Sensor-Two-Point-Dissolved-Oxygen-Calibration-Using-Yeast-Tech-Note.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjkxf-BsqzRAhUDkJQKHTB0ChAQFggZMAA&usg=AFQjCNFdSb2ZNPIaGKYN5NIGATb1SatI9A&sig2=OzQQygmFVLYKHYO92plUow

For all intents and purposes it looks like 2 x 7g packs in 30-35L of water is probably enough.

I might do this for my strike water, get to strike temp, dough in (15-18L), then heat to boiling and boil/stir for my sparge water (20L), which only has to cool to 80°C and which will have SMB in my 10L cubes.

 

[Futur]

For all intents and purposes it looks like 2 x 7g packs in 30-35L of water is probably enough.

http://shop.coles.com.au/online/mobile/national/lowan-yeast-dried-instant

 

[dannymars]

This thread is blowing my mind... I just listened to the Fermentation Nation podcast episode about this today....

I can feel an obsession starting...

Theoretically, could you build an airtight chamber.... Flush it with pure N2 and brew in that? Obviously the brewer would have to wear and oxygen mask or skuba gear but is this even viable..... Would be hilarious non the less.

 

[Mardoo]

Especially if you wore flippers. YouTube please!

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I wonder if beer could be carbonated with Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) ... Now that would be entertaining!

 

[dannymars]

I wonder if beer could be carbonated with Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) ... Now that would be entertaining!

instant oxydation... would be the opposite of what we are trying to acheive here. There's a youtube video somewhere where they did it with helium... Funny video, but fake.

 

[Adr_0]

Well, about to do the baker's yeast method, with some CO2 purging of the mash tun and lines and SMB (a reduced dose). Recipe is a brown ale.

Although I mentioned purging with steam previously, I didn't end up up brewing that day for a few reasons, so didn't get to recognise the effectiveness or practicality of low DO.

Wish me luck... Something photos to follow.

 

[Adr_0]

After about 1hr10min of the yeast working on the strike water (smelled like it was), I did the following:
- Purged the mash tun from the bottom up with CO2
- Added 20mg/L of SMB + 20mg/L of ascorbic acid to the mash tun
- Underlet a few litres, then went up to 14L while cracking in the grain
- I also purged through the grain 'stream' with CO2 per this pic:


When sparge water is drained into 2 x 10L cubes - each dosed with 30mg/L SMB - I'll then purge the kettle using the valve here:


The mill and chute goes directly into the mash tun, between the two latches... so hopefully has minimal exposure to air, and is being milled into a mash tun full of CO2 or LODO water.

So hopefully the mechanism of yeast metabolism, underletting, SMB/ascorbic acid and pre-purging with CO2 will combine to reduce the DO in my brewday....

 

[Adr_0]

Well, i think it went fairly well - though I didn't measure DO at any stage, so a grain or two of salt issue recommended.

I ended up using about 1.2-1.4g SMB with all of my 34L of brewing water. A small portion on top of this was ascorbic acid (300-400mg).

I did notice there was very little aroma through the brewery, but in sampling the wort attend the end it way quite astringent. I believe this is the combination of 7.5% roasted malt (choc) with sulphate.

The article suggests that 100mg/L will contribute 76mg/L of sulphate, assuming all sulphite is oxidised.

I did add calcium chloride today the initial mash, but at my dosing rates I should have only seen 25mg/L on top of normal sulphate levels.

I added a little more calcium chloride to the boil and this improved things greatly. I think part of it was a temperature perception, but I hate to think what sort of sulphate levels you'd end up with at 100mg/L dosing.

 

[klangers]

Yeah - the sulphates introduced as part of the SMB additions were what had me a bit concerned. If you're trying to avoid the "hop pop" for a bock or something then it makes it a little difficult.

 

[Adr_0]

Yeah - the sulphates introduced as part of the SMB additions were what had me a bit concerned. If you're trying to avoid the "hop pop" for a bock or something then it makes it a little difficult.

It interesting that they chose Helles as a starting style, however on page 4:
...starting with reverse osmosis water and simply [add] enough calcium chloride to achieve 30 to 50 ppm of calcium

Without reading that initially I was probably halfway there, so makes a lot more sense now and would suggest this is an absolutely critical step.

To get 50ppm Ca in RO water, this would give 85ppm Cl which should balance the 76ppm SO4.

So, a critical step - but if you already have potentially 70-105ppm SO4 in Brisbane water, you're in trouble.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I emailed the ultrasonic seller 3 times about getting more photos of their product, but not a single response. .. Not a good sign. Have ditched the idea and ordered a insulated SS double wall food warmer to mash in.

 

[Futur]

Just thought I'd share my new rig to replace my Grainfather, taking into account low O2 practice.

 

[Futur]

I'd like to add a bit of credit to the lodo method. First competition I've entered some beers into - I managed to score gold in the pale lager category at the recent Gold Coast Amateur Brewing Comp.

Maybe all the extra effort isn't such a waste of time after all!

 

[neal32]

lol, I got 2nd in the same category with....a lodo Helles! I wouldn't credit it to the method so much. I entered a lodo Dopplebock that didn't place.

I'm of the belief that if you're messing around with lodo, it's just because your into geeking out and trying different things to make good beer. That process in itself develops good beers, not one silver bullet.

The only definitive thing I'll say about lodo is it makes a paler beer. I would love to see a proper side by side done though........

 

[Futur]

lol, I got 2nd in the same category with....a lodo Helles! I wouldn't credit it to the method so much. I entered a lodo Dopplebock that didn't place.

I'm of the belief that if you're messing around with lodo, it's just because your into geeking out and trying different things to make good beer. That process in itself develops good beers, not one silver bullet.

Ha, there you go
I'll have to agree with you, however the lodo "method" covers so much process on the hot and cold side. It's not a silver bullet just removing oxygen, it's taking on all the process improvements which helps eradicate flaws from your beers and leaves you with only the recipe variables to play with.