Lager Yeast Pitching Dry or Liquid ... again!

[bounce]

It seems to me that in the planning of a lager (23L batch) that unless a liquid yeast is brand new the only way to achieve the required number of cells to pitch is with at least 2 smackpacks in a 2.5 - 3 L starter. In contrast I can simply hydrate 2-3 dry yeast packets at a third the cost.

Is the use of a slurry of starter yeast a significant advantage in cool ferments particularly by adding chilled yeast to a warmer wort to fire the ferment in action?

The beer I am planning is a pilsner that really only need to finish on the dry side for my taste (little influence of the yeast). Does anyone have tips for the best use of dry lager yeast (and the variety) to achieve this?

 

[Goose]

Absolutely! You can find all your answers in this thread:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/74450-re-hydrate-v-not/page-1

happy reading.

 

[GalBrew]

The key to lagers is to pitch the right amount of yeast, especially with cold pitching. You are also correct in that you need quite a lot of liquid yeast when compared to an ale. I recently fermented 46L of a Dortmunder Export and it was going to cost quite a lot of cash to use what WLP yeasts were available (in terms of date) without doing stepped starters which I admit to not being bothered doing. I ended up using 3x 15g rehydrated packets of w-34/70 from KK as it was less than half the price of the cheapest WLP vials.

Seemed to have worked out pretty well. I don't mind w-34/70 or s-189 for lagers. Rarely use the dry stuff for ales though as I can usually get away with a single vial.

 

[bounce]

Thanks - that former thread got outta control!

Is there any truth in the rumour that dry lager yeasts are more often top-fermenting ale yeasts that tolerate cooler temps?

Not that I want to get in to a hydrate arguement (assume that is my preference for that reason alone), should rehydrated yeast once started be cooled to below that of the wort before pitching?

 

[Spiesy]

Is there any truth in the rumour that dry lager yeasts are more often top-fermenting ale yeasts that tolerate cooler temps?

From a reputable brand, a lager yeast will be a lager yeast.

By the way, if you're able to grow starters, there's absolutely no reason why one vial couldn't propagate enough yeast for any sized batch.
Sure, you may have to do a few steps, but if you want access to more variety in yeast and want to save yourself some coin; a stir plate, some DME and flasks will easily pay for themselves in time.

 

[GalBrew]

Stepped starters are just something I don't have time for. It's either a single step or nothing. I don't think I'm going to get SWMBO over the line with stepped starters.

 

[mje1980]

For a normal sized batch of 1.050 wort I do a 4 litre starter for a lager, add to the ferm fridge with the cube at 6c, then when both cube and starter are at the right temp, I decant most of the liquid, then pitch and let rise to 8-10c.

I've got 2 packs of 34/70 that I'm thinking of experimenting with. A 1.035-40 mid strength summer lager, and I plan on just cold pitching 2 packs of this straight in. Should be plenty of yeast.

 

[Spiesy]

Stepped starters are just something I don't have time for. It's either a single step or nothing. I don't think I'm going to get SWMBO over the line with stepped starters.

Just try the ol', "it will save us money" line.
It will save you money, in the long run. The more you drink, the more you will save.

They don't take that long either; if you've got a stir plate, it's 15-mins to prep, then you let it do it's thing.

Of course, if none of this is appealing to you - you can always throw a couple of packs of dry yeast at your beer.

 

[GalBrew]

For single and double batch ales I will always do a single-step starter and use a liquid yeast. After boiling and cooling the stater wort, pitching the yeast and setting up my stir plate and temp controller it take much longer than 15 min to set up. The thought of chilling that down, decanting spent wort and repeating the process 2 or 3 times to get sufficient yeast numbers for 46L of 1.056 lager does not really do it for me, so on the odd occasion this happens I do pitch dry yeast (rehydrated of course). If you have the time to spend a week growing yeast for a big pitch, more power to you. I just don't have the time.

Unfortunately the 'it will save money' line used to work until jr arrived and now it's all about time......precious time.

 

[Eagleburger]

For my first lager, I made a one step starter over one day. used 50ml of a wyeast smack pack in a 2L wort. Pitched in 22L@ 10degC with OG of 1052. went to 1012 in under four days . Also stunk the shed out too but thats another story.

This is my third starter with this yeast.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/50154-lets-freeze-some-yeast/?p=1195787

 

[bounce]

Is the easy way to step up a starter to:

Day 1: make one litre of 1035 DME solution and pitch the smackpack and place on the stir plate
Day 2: Simply make 2 more litres of 1035 DME solution and add
Day 4: chill
Day 5: Decant and pitch to the wort

Key question - will the use of just one smack pack in this method give me enough yeast for a lager?

 

[verysupple]

Is the easy way to step up a starter to:

Day 1: make one litre of 1035 DME solution and pitch the smackpack and place on the stir plate
Day 2: Simply make 2 more litres of 1035 DME solution and add
Day 4: chill
Day 5: Decant and pitch to the wort

Key question - will the use of just one smack pack in this method give me enough yeast for a lager?

YeastCalc will help you estimate how much yeast you will grow. http://www.yeastcalc.co/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator

 

[Spiesy]

Is the easy way to step up a starter to:

Day 1: make one litre of 1035 DME solution and pitch the smackpack and place on the stir plate
Day 2: Simply make 2 more litres of 1035 DME solution and add
Day 4: chill
Day 5: Decant and pitch to the wort

Key question - will the use of just one smack pack in this method give me enough yeast for a lager?

Not quite.

Between steps 1 and 2, you want to chill and decant spent wort. Leave a little of the spent wort to swirl around the yeast, then decant that to your next step.

And as mentioned by verysupple, there is no hard and fast general rule... you will need to take the following variables into account to determine the yeast numbers needed: size of batch, OG of batch, age and condition of yeast, lager or ale.

 

[jimi]

If you are time poor when preparing yeast AND you cube/no chill then drauflassen may suit you. See
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen
When doing lagers (not that I do many) it's part of my standard procedure.

 

[bounce]

Thanks All

Last question - if I use liquid yeast and assume that in my non-laboratory starter conditions I don't achieve the yeast cell number predicted by the calculators, can I pitch 1 packet of dry lager yeast with the starter slurry as an insurance policy?

 

[Spiesy]

Personally, I wouldn't be adding another yeast unless I had to.

 

[bounce]

Thanks Spiesy

I am look forward to fermenting this pilsner in my new SS Brewbucket!

 

[Spiesy]

Nice one!
:super:

 

[Eagleburger]

If you are time poor when preparing yeast AND you cube/no chill then drauflassen may suit you. See
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen
When doing lagers (not that I do many) it's part of my standard procedure.

I am gonna try this in the future.

 

[jimi]

I am gonna try this in the future.

Dead easy for no chillers and great results. I brought a few of the 9ltr kegs in a BB and now use 2 X 10ltr cubes for each batch. I either brew a single 10ltr cube for a small keg or drauflassen for a 18ltr keg. My oktoberfest beer plans will start with me brewing a light helles using only a single 10ltr cube, then using the yeast stores built up from this to do a dunkel and / or oktoberfest using the drauflassen method (one cube on top of another that has been fermenting for a few days). Highly recommended for minimising esters and managing the lager yeast store required for lagers with very little effort.