Lager vs Ale

[Rambo]

Not sure the average joe in Australia would know the difference between a lager and ale. If a customer in the uk wants a lager they will ask for one, specifically... Though if they want an ale, they will ask for a beer.

I have always wondered about why lagers are the generic beer in Australia (and other countries) given the extra time and energy needed to produce them.

 

[Gelding]

So why is lager also popular in Germany?
And Poland?
And the UK?

Hey Manticle

Germany, Czech and Poland I would expect soft water quality is the main reason. We all know what water quality leads itself to the beer style that is most naturally brewed.

Lager in the UK, ok... but lets face it, pulled bitters are their signature.

Australia with its young heritage is probably mostly influenced by climate

G

 

[dent]

We all know what water quality leads itself to the beer style that is most naturally brewed.

Nah, I disagree. Germany favours lager whether their water is hard or soft.

How many brewers can really tell the difference in their water quality? It sure seems to me they look to water long before they look to faults in the rest of the brewing process, as if there might lie some magic bullet that will cure all antedecent faults. I know I sure did.

 

[Spiesy]

Many years ago countries would have developed a preference for certain style based on their quality and type of water - but that time has passed.

These days you can adjust the brewing water, and you'll find German Becks brewed under license in Australia, Japanese Kirin brewed under license in Canada and everything in between (with varying results).

The simply fact is that the world is awash with pale lager, and has been for some time. It has eroded beers that gave a country its cultural identity, to a large degree.

Why? I think it's because these beers have a very neutral flavour profile, and the big breweries are of the belief that this flavour profile appeals to the masses. So with one broad stroke they can mass produce, mass market and make mass profits.

Perhaps, they see pale lager as I describe Corona… there's nothing to not like about Corona, but there's nothing to like about it either - it's flavour neutral.

 

[TimT]

Australia with its young heritage is probably mostly influenced by climate

I don't really buy this - lots of Aussies still have the traditional roast and baked potatoes with gravy and all the works - a classic winter dish - on a searing summer's day when Christmas rolls around. So I don't think climate influences cultural preferences strongly.

It sounds like a combination of different things though - the lager trend caught on throughout the world in a big way in the 19th century, and Australia came to maturity at the same time. And our drinking culture got influenced by it.

 

[Toper]

I've been reading "The Breweries of Australia-A History",and it's got a chapter on the intro of lager into Oz.Quoting from the Australian Brewers Journal from 1882 it describes lager as "lighter,less intoxicating,more gaseous,and better conditioned" than the old style ales and porters.The journal goes on to encourage brewers here to brew the style,which they say 'is "the beer of the future" in the Australian climate.It seems the 'less intoxicating' element was a big consideration at a time when the standard ales would have been a lot stronger than todays versions.Men wanted "a long drink,not a strong drink".Pasteurisation also comes into the factor,the 'new style' evolving at the same time,and increasing the longevity and quality of the beer for consumers.

 

[Bribie G]

In A Town Like Alice by Neville Schute (Edit Nevil Shute) there's a sentence: the heroine meets the hero at an airport or train station or somewhere and buys him three bottles of "the light Australian beer that does nobody any harm if it's accompanied by hard work" or words to that effect. Always struck me as funny, as it was no doubt the full 5% stuff.

Aussie lagers are quite strong by Euro standards - Pilsner Urquell is and always has been 4.5% ABV and in the UK lagers are usually sub 4%, as is Fosters over there. Some of the East Euro ones go up to high fives, like Zywiec, but you have to seek them out.

Bet you didn't know that modern refrigeration was invented by the editor of the Geelong Times. They used acetone to clean the print blocks and he noticed that if he blew over the surface the metal almost froze and the penny dropped.
It was the right time and place because within a few years they were building refrigerated ships to send mutton and beef to the mighty UK and it was also what the breweries were looking for.

Unlike the UK where, if you build a big thick brick building with cellars you are guaranteed around 18 degrees all year round, in Australia it was very difficult to build breweries that didn't swing wildly in temperature.
In the UK you could use waste heat from the boilers to heat, and to a certain extent you could use cold well or stream water to cool the brew with attemperators (that's exactly how the Yorkshire Stone Square system works), but apart from that there was no way of seriously chilling stuff so they stuck with ales.

When refrigeration came in with the Fosters Brothers who built their high tech brewery, they went straight to lagers. As Toper says the ales at the time would have been pretty feral, as they would have been modelled on the UK "keeping beers" that were often plus 7%. I think there's a sentence in a Henry Lawson story I read about "the few quick beers had loosened his tongue....". Imagine slamming down a few warm malt liqua's in a hot pub in the summer.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

"Good morning Worm your honour​

The crown will plainly show​

The prisoner who now stands before you​

Was caught red handed showing flavours​

Showing flavours of an almost human nature​

This will not do.........."​

Classic

 

[Mardoo]

Not sure the average joe in Australia would know the difference between a lager and ale.

I work for a wine retailer that sells beers as loss leaders. I've been beating my head against the wall trying to get them to stop calling every beer we sell 'lager'. 'Larger' too. That's been applied to bitters, milds, stouts, weiss beers, ales, pretty much anything. FFS!

 

[TimT]

I've been reading "The Breweries of Australia-A History",and it's got a chapter on the intro of lager into Oz.Quoting from the Australian Brewers Journal from 1882 it describes lager as "lighter,less intoxicating,more gaseous,and better conditioned" than the old style ales and porters.


Toper, true - though I just opened a copy of The Amber Nectar (borrowed from a friend) and there's this, from the same journal in 1897:

There is not the smallest chance of the concocted-in-Germany swill ever being acclimatised in Australia...People that drink beer will stick to the decent old Anglo-Saxon stuff....

As the old Anglo-Saxons say every so often, crikey!

 

[Gelding]

Nah, I disagree. Germany favours lager whether their water is hard or soft.

How many brewers can really tell the difference in their water quality? It sure seems to me they look to water long before they look to faults in the rest of the brewing process, as if there might lie some magic bullet that will cure all antedecent faults. I know I sure did.

100 years ago I suspect you could not make a Pilsner with water from burton on trent, nor could you make a newcastle brown with water from pilsen that would taste remotely like the lagers and ales they are respectively. Its what tasted good at the time without having the technology to adjust the 4 primary ingredients to measure.


As to how many brewers can tell the difference in water quality ? For me its very important. Taste a bottle of distilled water then taste something from your tap and tell me which one you would rather in your beer.

Many years ago countries would have developed a preference for certain style based on their quality and type of water - but that time has passed.

These days you can adjust the brewing water, and you'll find German Becks brewed under license in Australia, Japanese Kirin brewed under license in Canada and everything in between (with varying results).

The simply fact is that the world is awash with pale lager, and has been for some time. It has eroded beers that gave a country its cultural identity, to a large degree.

Why? I think it's because these beers have a very neutral flavour profile, and the big breweries are of the belief that this flavour profile appeals to the masses. So with one broad stroke they can mass produce, mass market and make mass profits.

Perhaps, they see pale lager as I describe Corona… there's nothing to not like about Corona, but there's nothing to like about it either - it's flavour neutral.

Years ago the brits adopted the imperial system for measurement and used miles per hour on their speedometers and roadsigns. That time has passed. But they never changed.

 

[manticle]

Germans for starters have been adjusting water/mash pH for a long time and water mineral content has been known to be important for more than 100 years.

 

[Gelding]

Germans for starters have been adjusting water/mash pH for a long time and water mineral content has been known to be important for more than 100 years.

Actually I did'nt think they did starters and just pitched vast quantities of S-189 dry yeast for their lagers

Kidding of course, but I think you are missing my point.

 

[manticle]

No I'm not missing yours but you may be missing mine. I don't think the prevalence of lager drinking is based entirely on region or water.

Clear looking, pale refreshing, not sour/hoppy/bretty/oaky/whatever beer became the desired thing at some point in brewing history and that trend spread here as it did elsewhere, water source irrespective (because brewers have known about water and mash chemistry longer than we seem to give them credit for).

Lagers may suit a hot climate when served bubbly and cold but that is not the only, nor even the main reason they are so popular over the entire world, climate and water notwithstanding.

 

[black_labb]

100 years ago I suspect you could not make a Pilsner with water from burton on trent, nor could you make a newcastle brown with water from pilsen that would taste remotely like the lagers and ales they are respectively. Its what tasted good at the time without having the technology to adjust the 4 primary ingredients to measure.

While it would be difficult to brew a true to style pilsener in places with hard water there is no reason you cannot brew a nice pale beer with hard water. The brewers of dublin weren't looking through a BJCP style guideline saying "well our water just isn't going to work for a Bohemian pilsener and I can't get my hands on american hops for a Double american IPA... Oh look, a dry Irish Stout, that sounds like a good idea." Beers were brewed for a number of reasons including local taste, culture, climate, availability of ingredients. Water profile is a consideration but I would put it pretty low on the list. For example the Czechs brew excellent Dark Lagers using local ingredients and water. Why were they not adopted locally and around the world like pilseners? What is now the UK priced beers based on alcoholic strength and they developed beers to taste strong so the landlords could charge more as the beer was perceived as stronger. Throw in some rationing of malts and the desire to get as full flavoured as possible was very important. They grew the flower producing female hops in the presence of male hops to give them a bit more aggressive bite to them compared to continental hops.

Without really knowing I would suggest that the prevalence of lagers in Australia probably comes down to refrigeration. The ales of the time would have been fermented at ambient temperatures which have a big swing in just about all of Australia even if you have a cellar or similar. You would have winter brews in sydney and Melbourne probably in the mid to low teens being pushed up a few degrees by the exothermic fermentation. In Summer an ambient 25-35 with an extra 5+ degrees on top of that from the exothermic fermentation running out of control because it is fermenting too quickly. Lagers have no chance of being palatable here unless proper temperature control is implemented. Some ale brewers probably started to make use of refrigeration but the reputation was already there and fed by the ale brewers who hadn't controlled their temperatures.

Just look at how American style ales are completely dominating our craft beer market with every big and small brewery trying to get some sort of american style pale ale if not an amber and an IPA as well. It's because of cultural links to america, a backlash/differentiating point against local swill, local climate etc. In some eastern european countries Wit beers have become quite popular and are brewed locally (Ukraine and Croatia I remember in particulat). There is a lot more to do with the situation than just what water is available.

 

[dent]

100 years ago I suspect you could not make a Pilsner with water from burton on trent, nor could you make a newcastle brown with water from pilsen that would taste remotely like the lagers and ales they are respectively. Its what tasted good at the time without having the technology to adjust the 4 primary ingredients to measure.

I don't think my point is refuted by cherry picking the diametrically opposed water conditions and beer styles out there. And even then it isn't much the case - have a look at the burton water vs dortmunder and you'll see that hard water can still make a good pale lager.

As to how many brewers can tell the difference in water quality ? For me its very important. Taste a bottle of distilled water then taste something from your tap and tell me which one you would rather in your beer.

That sounds more like an ideology than anything else. I drink RO water all the time, and I use it in brewing. I also use filtered (Perth) tap water in brewing. By the time beer is made out of the water here though, you would no longer able to pick which beer came from what. Obviously the adjusted RO water has benefits, but they are of a generally more technical and process related nature, rather than the glass in your hand. And I brew light lagers pretty regularly.

I'm not saying this will always be the case, but it isn't night and day.

 

[manticle]

have a look at the burton water vs dortmunder and you'll see that hard water can still make a good pale lager.

My understanding (what I was alluding to before) is that dortmunder is a great example of why relying on alleged, historical water profiles is a bad idea as German Brewers (including those in Dortmund) have been at the forefront of mash acidification techniques and water chemistry for a long time. We (collectively)seem to think it's a recent discovery and that anyone brewing more than 50 years ago did it by guesswork, magic and sacrificing otters while dancing widdershins.

 

[pk.sax]

I'm guessing here, but innovation and risk taking seems to follow both the living on the edge people and the seeking the edge people. Doesn't matter ale or lager, seems that entropy seems to always cause a push away from whatever the status quo is and mostly pushes the pendulum farther away than it was. Of course, entropy can also be maintained by eliminating difference.

 

[real_beer]

Money Money Money!
Big corporations in the brewing industry are all about increasing profits for shareholders. They do this by designing beers that will offend the least number of people among the population, this basically means brewing a beer with the least flavour possible. The rest is up to the advertising agencies using sporting hero's of all types, bikini clad beauties frolicking with bronzed he-men with bulging biceps & six-pack torso's. Very little about the taste of the beer itself usually because it doesn't have much flavour to talk about & also to be fair a lot about restrictions on what can be shown in an ad by government policies (probably lobbied for by the brewer's themselves :lol: ). Anheuser-Busch InBev spends about 1.4 billion dollars a year on advertising and you can guess the beers that get most of that budget. Sadly they also have a huge litigation department with funds to attack & wear down rivals brewers to get them out of the market, just ask Sam Caliagone about this tactic.

In Australia & probably the UK too, you could probably give this man the credit for cementing modern day megaswills as the beer to drink.

 

[TimT]

Ah yes, the Barry McKenzie films. I saw an interview with writer Barry Humphries who claims 'we never got a cent from them [Carlton United]' for the use of the beers in the films.

Translation: heaps and heaps of free beer for cast and crew....