Lager Brewing

[MHB]

Do not dry pitch, always rehydrate according to manufacturers instructions.

So when every packet of Saf Yeast has written on it "Sprinkle into wort" what should we be doing, believing the world's biggest manufacture of dried brewing yeast or should we go with AHB conventional wisdom?

MHB

 

[JestersDarts]

So when every packet of Saf Yeast has written on it "Sprinkle into wort" what should we be doing, believing the world's biggest manufacture of dried brewing yeast or should we go with AHB conventional wisdom?

MHB

Rhetorical question?

 

[Wolfy]

So when every packet of Saf Yeast has written on it "Sprinkle into wort" what should we be doing, believing the world's biggest manufacture of dried brewing yeast or should we go with AHB conventional wisdom?

MHB

Strange how "AHB conventional wisdom" is exactly what the worlds biggest manufaturer of dried yeast suggests: http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Saflager_S-23_HB.pdf

"Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 23C 3C. Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel."

I'm sure you'd get adequate results just sprinkling it ontop (which they also mention you can do), just as you'd get adequate results if you fermented at the temperatures mentioned on the instructions for most-kit beers. But I'd suggest that's just the lazy-suggestion to get more people using their product and I'd like to think that most AHB members want to make the best beer they can rather than cutting corners.

 

[fraser_john]

So when every packet of Saf Yeast has written on it "Sprinkle into wort" what should we be doing, believing the world's biggest manufacture of dried brewing yeast or should we go with AHB conventional wisdom?

MHB

I'd be following the correct manufacturers instructions here

or

<cut from the pdf>
Pitching instructions:
Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 23C 3C. Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.
<end cut, copyright etc Fermentis>

And yes it does say you can sprinkle it in, but there is the caveat about being above 20c.

 

[MHB]

Rhetorical No it isn't the instructions on the pack say very explicitly to sprinkle into wort, I realise that there are alternative procedures mentioned on the website.

Here is the full quote (not edited to push a barrow). I don't believe that it's a right/wrong thing both options are offered by the manufacture as equally valid methods on the commercial sized packages (500g and up) but every sachet offered for home brewing says "Sprinkle into wort" we can speculate as to why.

Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 23C 3C. Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.

MHB

PS
F_J posted while I was typing.

When two alternatives are offered as being equally valid why is one more correct than the other this is exactly what I meant by "conventional wisdom" thanks for demonstrating my point.

M

 

[felten]

Should we ferment our coopers kits at 27c as well?

 

[MHB]

Actually I not against rehydrating yeast if it's done properly and in many cases it isn't think through the steps listed in the instructions, let's take apart what is said on the Saf website (red is the quoted section black is mine).

Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching.
A stirred vessel that's a stir-plate at a minimum, in a larger brewery they have speed controllable top down stirrers (like a stick blender only bigger dearer and a lot slower); if their open they must be in a clean room or sterile air cabinet.
Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 23C 3C.
For 1 packet of Saflager S-23 (let's stick with this yeast just for this discussion) that's 110 mL for 2 packets 220 mL, making sure the temperature is and remains between 20-26 ^oC, predicates using a (sterile) thermometer.
Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes.
Now stir constantly for between and 1 hour, I would really want that stir-plate about 10 minutes in and wouldn't want to be standing there stirring open to the air for of an hour or more.
Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Straight forward enough.

Those are the manufacturer's instructions, is that how anyone here either rehydrates their own or recommends that others handle their dry yeast?

Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.
Starting to look a bit easier?

I take the point about shabby instructions on kits; mind you the only kits that I know which are shipped with true to type Lager yeast are Morgan's Chairman's Selection Cerveza and Lager. Both cans warn against going over 30 ^oC or off flavours might result ("might" FFS).
Someone at Morgan's needs slapping up the back of their head for that one.

MHB

 

[manticle]

The above brings up an interesting question relevant to this thread then - if it's better/as good to dry pitch into 18 degree wort, is it better for a lager to start at 18 if using dried or to rehydrate and drop the temp of the yeast mixture to ferment temp before pitching?

 

[slacka]

It's only S-23 we're talking about here; just whack it in your fermenter. I wouldn't even bother with temperature control with all this cold weather we're having.

 

[Mclovin]

A stirred vessel that's a stir-plate at a minimum, in a larger brewery they have speed controllable top down stirrers (like a stick blender only bigger dearer and a lot slower); if their open they must be in a clean room or sterile air cabinet.

Now stir constantly for between and 1 hour, I would really want that stir-plate about 10 minutes in and wouldn't want to be standing there stirring open to the air for of an hour or more.

[/quote]

Looks like its off to k mart to find a blender!

Thanks for the lesson.

 

[MHB]

Christ I hope your joking, that would shred the yeast stir slowly, closer to 28 RPM than 2,850, it says slowly in the instructions.

There was a winery up in the Hunter that was having pitching problems turned out over enthusiastic stirring with a paint stirrer in an electric drill was killing about of the yeast

M

 

[Mclovin]

maybe a wisk will do the job. Its a good workout

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Now - If Screwtop is reading this, he might have something to say... because there are two ways to think about a starter.

1. - The one that has been talked about in this thread so far. Which is using a starter as a means to grow a small amount of yeast into an amount which is the ideal number of cells to pitch to your beer. This sort of starter is just about getting cell count. To call it a starter is a little bit misleading - its really a "growth culture"

2. - The alternate way is truly a "starter" - which is to add some wort to your pitching yeast, let it fire up and pitch it while its active. So it hits the ground running (so to speak) and you get a shorter lag time.

Now you can combine 1 & 2 by simply pitching your "growth culture" while its still in high krausen - but a lot of people don't do that because they use different conditions for growing their yeast (higher temperatures and oxygen exposure) that might mean the wort/beer that goes along with the yeast is full of undesirable flavours.

Or you can do method 1 tip off the "beer" leaving only the yeast and follow it with method 2.

Method 2 - I see no problems at all doing that with dried yeast. Re-hydrate the stuff, mix it into some wort and get it firing - dump it in. All good. Its Method 1 where you would be better off just shelling out the cash for more dried yeast than trying to grow it yourself.

TB

 

[Steve]

The above brings up an interesting question relevant to this thread then - if it's better/as good to dry pitch into 18 degree wort, is it better for a lager to start at 18 if using dried or to rehydrate and drop the temp of the yeast mixture to ferment temp before pitching?

I used to dry sprinkle at ale temps, leave overnight for signs of life/krausen and then drop to lager temps. Never had any problems and they tasted lovely once fermented, d rested, cc'd and bottled.

 

[Nevalicious]

Now - If Screwtop is reading this, he might have something to say... because there are two ways to think about a starter.

1. - The one that has been talked about in this thread so far. Which is using a starter as a means to grow a small amount of yeast into an amount which is the ideal number of cells to pitch to your beer. This sort of starter is just about getting cell count. To call it a starter is a little bit misleading - its really a "growth culture"

2. - The alternate way is truly a "starter" - which is to add some wort to your pitching yeast, let it fire up and pitch it while its active. So it hits the ground running (so to speak) and you get a shorter lag time.

Now you can combine 1 & 2 by simply pitching your "growth culture" while its still in high krausen - but a lot of people don't do that because they use different conditions for growing their yeast (higher temperatures and oxygen exposure) that might mean the wort/beer that goes along with the yeast is full of undesirable flavours.

Or you can do method 1 tip off the "beer" leaving only the yeast and follow it with method 2.

Method 2 - I see no problems at all doing that with dried yeast. Re-hydrate the stuff, mix it into some wort and get it firing - dump it in. All good. Its Method 1 where you would be better off just shelling out the cash for more dried yeast than trying to grow it yourself.












TB, maybe I should've cleared up my earlier post about making starters for dried yeast. Your explanation of "method 2" is exactly what I do. Fire up the pack in a boiled and cooled wort at ferment temps, pitch when underway!

Brilliant!

Tyler

TB