Lager Brewing

[Mclovin]

Hi all,

Recently I have been looking into brewing a lager or as close to a lager as i can get. Currently my plan is as follows,

1. Add 22g of S-23 yeast to 220ml of water for rehydration starter, cover and wait 15 min, Stir and airate briskly, cover again and wait 20 min.
2. Pitch yeast @ 8'C into wort
3. Raise temp over 3 days to 12'C
4. Ferment at 12'C for 3 weeks
5. Raise temp to 18/20'C for 24/48 hrs for a Diacytel rest
6. Rack to keg and lager for 4/6 weeks

Will this method work ok or should i make any changes?

 

[manticle]

Mostly sounds good but I would go the other way with pitching temps - start a little higher then gradually drop.

Mainly due to less lag time. I'm not massively experienced in lager brewing - only done a couple - but this is my understanding and how I've done it before.

Also if you rehydrate in 20 something water then pitch that into 8 degree wort, I think you will shock the yeast.

Finally the 'x no of weeks' schedule is contingent on gravity etc but I'm assuming you know that. Could be 2 weeks, could be 4 - if gravity is right it's fermented, if it's off then it isn't.

 

[jakub76]

maticle - I disagree.
"I would go the other way with pitching temps - start a little higher then gradually drop."
You'll get as many opinions as brewers BUT IMHO and that of the Brewing Network guys is to pitch cold, at fermentation temps or lower. It seems it's most important to keep the temp down in the initial stages during the orgy of yeast multiplying. Apparently that is when most of the diacetyl, esters and off-flavours form. Then keeping the yeast active by increasing the temp after most of the sugar is gone allows the little beasts to clean up their mess.

In answer to your question...I would make a starter the day before your brew day.
50g DME in 500ml water, boil for 5 minutes then cool. Remember to sanitize!
Then when you pitch you'll be pitching heaps more yeast cells AND they'll be active! Just pour the whole starter in once you've got your wort down to fermentation temp.

Yeast are happy and healthy at room temp, even lager yeast - but they produce shitty beer unless you keep your fermentation temps in check.

 

[manticle]

I'm definitely not an expert in lager brewing so I'm happy to accept if I'm wrong.

I know that most ester formation occurs in the first couple of days of active ferment. What I'm suggesting is pitching at 16-18 and dropping to 12 over a day or two. That means by the time active fermentation is happening, the brew is at fermentation temp.

More than happy to be wrong but thought I should clarify.

 

[unrealeous]

According to white labs, you can pitch at higher temps and then lower without problems...

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/Yeast_Life_Cycle.pdf

"The lag phase can be carried out at a higher temperature than the rest of fermentation because very little
flavor compounds are produced. Ethanol production is also very limited, therefore ester formation is not a
concern. Some brewers begin the lag phase for ales at 72-750F, and complete the fermentation at 680F.
This can be done with success for lagers too, with starting the lag phase at 72-750F and lowering the
fermentation temperature to 50-550F."

 

[Wolfy]

Will this method work ok or should i make any changes?

Without knowing the volume of wort or OG I'll just have to assume that 22g is the correct amount of dried yeast.
You also don't mention if you're AG or Extract brewing, if AG you may like to let the wort cool and settle in a seperate ferementer and rack off the break/trub just before you aerate and pitch the yeast.

Other than that your process follows the what JZ and JP describe as "Narziss fermentation" in 'Brewing Classic Styles' and is their recommended way to brew lagers.
The only difference is they suggest pitching at 7'C and fermenting at 10'C.
They also suggest that you may not need a diacytel rest since pitching a good quantity of yeast a low temperatures should minimize any off flavours.

 

[manticle]

The other possibility is to make the starter at fermentation temp and just wait the extra time for the starter to kick off. Make sure you smell and taste before pitching.

Just reading through how to brew and it suggests Jakub is correct. A little above your intended ferment temp is OK (say 4-5 degrees) but not much more.

Actually, on second thoughts, that makes us both right. I suggested going from 16-18 down to 12 which fits this model. Just don't start at 28 then try and drop to 12.

 

[Mclovin]

Without knowing the volume of wort or OG I'll just have to assume that 22g is the correct amount of dried yeast.
You also don't mention if you're AG or Extract brewing, if AG you may like to let the wort cool and settle in a seperate ferementer and rack off the break/trub just before you aerate and pitch the yeast.

Extract at this stage. Looking to start off at around 1.040. Advice given for fermenting lagers is to use 2 11g packets of yeast as low temp 10/12'C fermentation is a slow process.

Some good advice thanks.

 

[jakub76]

Why not save $6 and reduce your lag time by making a starter with one packet. It's a piece of piss, just make sure to keep everything sanitized.

 

[Nevalicious]

Why not save $6 and reduce your lag time by making a starter with one packet. It's a piece of piss, just make sure to keep everything sanitized.

Agreed. Starters for lagers all the way!!!

I have done one lager with dry yeast "unstartered" (if that is even a word)

The rest have been done using starters... 1/3 of the lag time

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Starters aren't the best idea with dried yeast - they might save you a little money, but in all likelihood will actually reduce the viability and health of your yeast. If you need more than 1 pack.. buy another pack. Liquid yeast, absolutely do a starter.

I am in the camp that says you should pitch a little colder than you intend to ferment and let it rise up to your fermentation temperature. Pitching warm is something you might do - if you weren't pitching the correct amount of yeast. The whole point of pitching warm is to give your yeast a chance to grow a bit... something which isn't necessary if you pitch enough of it in the first place.

Less than optimum amount of yeast - pitch a few degrees warm and cool over 24hrs = OK, no problems it'll be alright. Beer will most likely be good.

Optimum amount of yeast - pitch 1 or 2 degrees cooler than you plan to ferment and let it warm itself over a day or three = the best chance of making a great lager.

The rest of your plan sounds pretty much good - but don't get to fixed on the "times" you should take gravity readings and when you are done, you are done. 1 week, 2 weeks, 6 weeks - it takes as long as it takes. A D rest wont hurt.. might as well do one.

I would cold crash for a week and perhaps add some finings before you rack to keg. You want a little bit of yeast for lagering.. but even after cold crashing and fining you will have more than enough and your beer will be clearer faster.

TB

 

[unrealeous]

Starters aren't the best idea with dried yeast - they might save you a little money, but in all likelihood will actually reduce the viability and health of your yeast.

Can you explain why? After re-hydrating dry yeast - isn't it essentially the same as liquid yeast? I don't understand why a starter would reduce the viability and health.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Because the growing/cultivating conditions in the yeast factory are craploads better than you or I could possibly replicate at home. Far better than the conditions that exist in even a continuously stirred and oxygenated starter. Freshly re-hydrated dry yeast is just about the healthiest most packed with nutrient and vitality yeast that there could possibly be. Pretty much the only thing you can do to it is make it worse.

Liquid yeast is in tip top shape when its packaged... but it goes downhill rather quickly from that point on. One of the reasons to use a starter with liquid yeast, even if you arent' after much cell number increase, is precisely because the yeast as it is, is seriously unlikely to be in great shape by the time you get to use it, making a starter perks it up again.

You make a starter with a pack of dried yeast that doubles the number of cells - and what you end up with is twice as many, somewhat less vital cells. If you double the number of cells by buying another pack of yeast - they are all in fantastic shape.

If you don't want to spend the cash - for sure, a starter is way better than underpitching - but the optimum is to spend the money and get more dried yeast.

 

[Wolfy]

Dried yeast are essentially force-fed oxygen and nutrients to ensure that they are in the best condition for the stressful drying process and are ready to go to work as soon as they are pitched. If you create a starter, the yeast use up that store of oxygen and nutrients as they start to reproduce and ferment in the starter. As a result using dry yeast is the easiest way to get the 'correct' number of viable yeast cells - you just have to direct-pitch the correct amount of the stuff.
In addition it's harder to get a good estimate of the number of viable cells in a starter especially when it's made from dry yeast, most likely you'd need to pitch a 3L to 6L starter to have the same number of cells as 2 packs of yeast. When you consider the time/effort/cost of starter ingredients once again pitching 2 packs of dried yeast is probably an equally economic and much easier option.

 

[aaronpetersen]

Optimum amount of yeast - pitch 1 or 2 degrees cooler than you plan to ferment and let it warm itself over a day or three = the best chance of making a great lager.

Why pitch cool and not at your desired ferment temp?

 

[Wolfy]

Why pitch cool and not at your desired ferment temp?

To quote from 'Brewing Classic Styles':
"The idea behind the Narziss fermentation is to reduce the production of esters and other less desirable compounds during the most active phases of fermentation, and to increase the yeast activity near the end of the fermentation, converting most of the undesirable compounds into less offensive substances."

 

[Florian]

That is some great info Thirsty Boy and Wolfy. I was always under the impression that rehydrating and creating a starter was the best way to go with dry yeast. Only last sunday I have created a starter out of 2 packets of S-23 as I thought it would benefit my beer, rather than dry pitching the two packets. Your explanations about the 'best condition while packed' has convinced me to change my procedure in the future.

Up until now I have also pitched at ambient temp and set the fridge to 11 degrees. In future I will 'no chill in the fridge' (which could be referred to as 'slow chill') to 8 degrees and then transfer to fermenter and pitch.

Thanks again, great info!

Florian

 

[fraser_john]

... rather than dry pitching the two packets.

Do not dry pitch, always rehydrate according to manufacturers instructions.

 

[jakub76]

Why pitch cool and not at your desired ferment temp?

...in 'Brewing Classic Styles' ... they suggest pitching at 7'C and fermenting at 10'C.
They also suggest that you may not need a diacytel rest since pitching a good quantity of yeast a low temperatures should minimize any off flavours.

Although the yeast is happier at higher temps it makes better beer at lower temps. So do you want happy yeast or better beer?

 

[Florian]

Do not dry pitch, always rehydrate according to manufacturers instructions.

Yep, that's what I meant, rehydrating, not dry pitching, sorry. Can't edit my previous post anymore to correct.