Keg King Sanitiser Taste?

[JaseH]

Just crash chill the fermenter and put bottling on hold until you can get some starsan. If you have a fridge to fit it in that is. My last blonde ale was cold conditioning for 5 weeks while I had no time spare and it carbed up in the bottle no worries. Crystal clear too

Fermenter has been CC'ing for a couple of days already in anticipation of bottling tomorrow. Don't really want to leave it too much longer as its an IPA sitting on a ton of dry hopping trub! I went and grabbed some brewshield this arvo, figured it'll do for sterilising the bottles.

 

[fergi]

this is slightly off topic but for the last 3 years i have been using bacban that i get from the butcher shop that i work in,havent had an infection since using it and its a no rinse sanitiser, its cost effective ,costs me 36 dollars for 5 liters, i use 4 ml in a litre of water.

its a neutral ph sanitiser with 5% quaternary ammonium compound.it leaves no smell or taste, you can buy it from a butchers supplier in your state or go into your local butcher and ask him where he gets his sanitiser from.

fergi

 

[iralosavic]

this is slightly off topic but for the last 3 years i have been using bacban that i get from the butcher shop that i work in,havent had an infection since using it and its a no rinse sanitiser, its cost effective ,costs me 36 dollars for 5 liters, i use 4 ml in a litre of water.

its a neutral ph sanitiser with 5% quaternary ammonium compound.it leaves no smell or taste, you can buy it from a butchers supplier in your state or go into your local butcher and ask him where he gets his sanitiser from.

fergi

That stuff sounds pretty awesome. 5L is a lifetime supply too. I just ordered a smaller bottle of starsan to keep me going until I can gain some kind of resolution with KK. Even 250ml lasts me ageees.

 

[iralosavic]

So I wrote to Kee and he got back to me regarding the taste issues with some facts.

The ingredients present in their sanitiser have a taste threshold of 5ppm

It is the same active ingredients (Phosphoric acid blend) as Starsan, however, the biggest difference is the recommended concentration from each manufacturer.

Both products have an effective killing power at 3-2.5ph. Keg King recommend 10ml per 3.5 litres, compared with StarSan at 5.X litres. Kee explains that his company has erred on the side of caution concerning concentration levels to make absolutely certain that in the worst case scenario (highly alkaline water [tank or coastal water supplies]), the ph will still be low enough.

He goes on to explain that 10:6000 will still be an effective concentration in most circumstances (ie neutral ph water), and that 10:3500 is not a be all and end all figure. Their calculations are based on typical fermenter cleaning, where the sanitiser is drained (leaving up to ~20ml residual solution) and further diluted by ~20L wort. Based on this scenario 10:3500 will be a little shy of 1/4 the way to the taste threshold.

However, when you add the ppm from the fermenter to what is left behind when sanitising bottles (and in this scenario, we're talking a much smaller volume of beer ontop of the sanitiser, the equation is looking more likely to exceed the 5ppm, especially where drainage has been neglected.

Kee is going to conduct some tests concerning this bottling scenario and get back to me. Meanwhile, I will use a ph test strip to attain a ph of 2.5 at the lowest concentration possible (probably somewhere around 10:6000) and give the sanitiser another go in a few test bottles in my next batch.

The likelihood of the indiviual batch I recieved being inconsistent with manufacturer specifications is very low, so the above would seem to provide enough of an explanation. Those who have never tasted StarSan could possibly put it down to a higher dilution rate at the same active ingredient percentages.


Cheers

 

[JaseH]

Let me know how your PH tests turn out, I dont have an easy way to test PH of various concentrations but may try some lower concentrated solutions for a simple aroma/taste test.

I have a feeling the aroma comes from the surfuctant or wetting agent that they use, not the active sanitising ingredients.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

So I wrote to Kee and he got back to me regarding the taste issues with some facts.

The ingredients present in their sanitiser have a taste threshold of 5ppm

It is the same active ingredients (Phosphoric acid blend) as Starsan, however, the biggest difference is the recommended concentration from each manufacturer.

Both products have an effective killing power at 3-2.5ph. Keg King recommend 10ml per 3.5 litres, compared with StarSan at 5.X litres. Kee explains that his company has erred on the side of caution concerning concentration levels to make absolutely certain that in the worst case scenario (highly alkaline water [tank or coastal water supplies]), the ph will still be low enough.

He goes on to explain that 10:6000 will still be an effective concentration in most circumstances (ie neutral ph water), and that 10:3500 is not a be all and end all figure. Their calculations are based on typical fermenter cleaning, where the sanitiser is drained (leaving up to ~20ml residual solution) and further diluted by ~20L wort. Based on this scenario 10:3500 will be a little shy of 1/4 the way to the taste threshold.

However, when you add the ppm from the fermenter to what is left behind when sanitising bottles (and in this scenario, we're talking a much smaller volume of beer ontop of the sanitiser, the equation is looking more likely to exceed the 5ppm, especially where drainage has been neglected.

Kee is going to conduct some tests concerning this bottling scenario and get back to me. Meanwhile, I will use a ph test strip to attain a ph of 2.5 at the lowest concentration possible (probably somewhere around 10:6000) and give the sanitiser another go in a few test bottles in my next batch.

The likelihood of the indiviual batch I recieved being inconsistent with manufacturer specifications is very low, so the above would seem to provide enough of an explanation. Those who have never tasted StarSan could possibly put it down to a higher dilution rate at the same active ingredient percentages.


Cheers

Now thats the sort of response I like to see from a supplier, not just " Its not the same as X brand" well done Kee and to you for asking the question.
Nev

 

[iralosavic]

No worries. I just have to get some ph test strips with my next order. Bare in mind that if your water has a different ph to mine, your results will be different. Mine is 7.1ph.

 

[iralosavic]

Kee already got back to me after performing some tests on ppm levels in residual sanitiser in 330ml bottles. Not including carry-over from sanitiser present prior to bottling, at the 10:3500 ratio suggested on KK santiser, Kee did note ppm levels almost as high as 7ppm where no draining was performed (ie sanitiser quickly tipped out).

He would like to make a point that even at the StarSan concentration ratio, the sanitiser would still be just over the human taste threshold in this example.

Bare in mind that this is assuming perfect calculations of both sanitiser and water volumes. Even a couple of mls extra sanitiser could double the final ppm and even the most conservative mixing concentration would exceed taste thresholds.

This is not so much of a concern when kegging due to the much larger volume of beer resulting in higher dilution, but based on these findings, if you are bottling (especially stubbies), the key is to take extra care when mixing sanitiser, ensure thorough draining and consider diluting at 10:5000-5500 with KK sanitiser for this pupose. An effective weaker concentration is possible, but ph testing would be required for peace of mind.


Cheers,

 

[JaseH]

Thanks for chasing this up iralosavic. So basically you should only use it for bottle sterilising at a much reduced concentration to prevent off flavors in your beer, and then you need to verify that the PH is adequate? Are they planning on adjusting the formula for future batches?

I applaud Kee & KK for spending the time to look into the problem, but I think the solution he has provided is still a work around not a fix, especially for a product clearly advertised as "formulated to impart no off-odors or flavors when used at the recommended concentration".

I'll have to try some of my own tests but this seams like a bit of a hassle when other no rinse sanitisers don't appear to be as marginal when it comes to tainting the flavor of your beer.

 

[iralosavic]

Assuming your mixing ratios are accurate and you drain each bottle properly, you should be fine if you dilute at 10/5000, which is a little under StarSan. The product is not faulty nor any different (as far as ingredient percentages go) than SS, just the dilution guidelines differ- and this is purely a company choice.

Kee may consider selling the sanitiser with additional instructions/informations to help people like us with avoiding these issues. I don't consider his solution (extra dilution and due care with accuracy and drainage) a work around, as the only real issue is their recommended dilution ratio when bottling undrained or poorly drained 330ml bottles. While no tests were performed on 600ml bottles, it's clear that the risks are much lower.

I'm going to dilute until ph2.5 is reached purely for economic reasons, now that I understand that higher concentrations are superfluous. A bonus being lowered ppm and subsequent risk of taste perception

 

[JaseH]

I will do some tests at 10ml per 5L and see how it goes.

Just for reference, I used well drained 750ml bottles at the recommended(or very close to) dilution rate and still taste it in the finished beer. I dont think its restricted to the smaller bottle size. My draining method I consider good enough, I invert twice, a few minutes apart, ensuring there is not enough residual left to pool and run out of the bottle. If I were to go to any more trouble draining I would start to question the 'no-rinse' description.

BTW not trying to come across has having a shot at KK, they are my favourite LHBS! Just trying to provide some accurate feedback so if there is a problem they can address it.

 

[iralosavic]

I had some taste from some of my long necks too, but I didn't drain as thoroughly as you. The beer itself would have already had some sanitiser in it too. I think we should be righ by diluting to 1:5, which will still be effective as a sanitiser in all but the worst conditions. Testing is educational and fun anyway, plus could allow further dilution to make it go further.

 

[Deebo]

I have been using starsan at a ratio of 1.5ml per litre (from memory this is what they recommend?) and havent had an infection or any taste issues.
If it is the same acid/ratio etc as starsan maybe try that? (7.5ml for 5L, I use a syringe or pipette if doing only a couple of litres)
I use it in my cube then fermenter then kegs or the occasional bottle (they all normally have a bit of foam in them, cube mostly gets pushed out tho).

 

[iralosavic]

Here are the conversions for Star San dosing based on 1oz to 5 gallons:

30 to 18927
10 to 6309ml
5 to 3154ml
1.585 to 1000ml
0.79 to 500ml

I just made up a 500ml mixture for my spray bottle and I had to use my baby's medicine syringe to get the dosage accurate enough and even with that, air bubbles were a problem haha There is notably less smell from the StarSan bottle compared with KK, which is unusual.. I wonder what the differences bewteen the two actually are. Either way, I will do some side by side testing at ph 2.5 achieved with maximum dilution and see how it pans out. I'm confident the taste issues will be resolved, assuming thorough drainage of smaller bottles.

 

[Ross]

Here are the conversions for Star San dosing based on 1oz to 5 gallons:

30 to 18927
10 to 6309ml
5 to 3154ml
1.585 to 1000ml
0.79 to 500ml

I just made up a 500ml mixture for my spray bottle and I had to use my baby's medicine syringe to get the dosage accurate enough and even with that, air bubbles were a problem haha There is notably less smell from the StarSan bottle compared with KK, which is unusual.. I wonder what the differences bewteen the two actually are. Either way, I will do some side by side testing at ph 2.5 achieved with maximum dilution and see how it pans out. I'm confident the taste issues will be resolved, assuming thorough drainage of smaller bottles.

Starsan has 30% more active ingredients than the KK product, but you say has has less smell.... They may have some similar ingredients, but they are not the same product. 5 Star are world leaders in this sort of product design. However good the KK product is, it isn't Starsan. Use whatever works for you, I know which product I will continue to stock & use...

cheers Ross

 

[JaseH]

I did a test the other night with the KK sanitiser, using 2.5ml in 1L (2.5ml is the smallest increment on my bottle dosing chamber thingy). I put some in a long neck, gave it a good shake then drained(inverted) it twice as per my normal procedure. I then filled the bottle with tap water, let it sit over night and tasted it the next morning. I could still detect the sanitiser taste in the water. Maybe I am just sensitive to it?

I've been meaning to try an even lower dose but haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[iralosavic]

Starsan has 30% more active ingredients than the KK product, but you say has has less smell.... They may have some similar ingredients, but they are not the same product. 5 Star are world leaders in this sort of product design. However good the KK product is, it isn't Starsan. Use whatever works for you, I know which product I will continue to stock & use...

cheers Ross

G'day Ross. You've got a good point, as always. I'm trying not to start a brand war (just use StarSan as a basic comparison as we know no one has any issues with it) and instead figure out how we can get our KK sanitiser tasteless while still effective for its purpose. If it is just a matter of further dilution when sanitising bottles, then great... if not, then Kee deserves the opportunity to review our feedback and look into it further. At present I have nearly 500ml sanitiser, so I won't be needing to restock for a long time, but I will be using your StarSan until I can be confident that the KK product will not carry taste over into my finished beer.

I did a test the other night with the KK sanitiser, using 2.5ml in 1L (2.5ml is the smallest increment on my bottle dosing chamber thingy). I put some in a long neck, gave it a good shake then drained(inverted) it twice as per my normal procedure. I then filled the bottle with tap water, let it sit over night and tasted it the next morning. I could still detect the sanitiser taste in the water. Maybe I am just sensitive to it?

I've been meaning to try an even lower dose but haven't gotten around to it yet.

I think my palate is rather sensitive to it too, especially in a bitter beer. 2.5:1000 is equivalent to nearly 9mls in 3.5L, so you've barely diluted to the original ratiol. If you're unable to measure lower than 2.5ml, simply mix it with 1250mls of water to achieve 10:5000 ratio and give that a go. For the pupose of testing for taste perception at various dulutions it doesn't matter if the ph is too basic to act as a killing agent, however, once you find a dilution you are happy with you will *need* to do a ph test before using it as a sanitiser to make sure it is still within acceptable levels of acidity - an if not, refine and re-taste.

 

[Ross]

Hi Iralosavic,

Not wanting a product war either, i was just concerned that people are buying it, thinking it's a "Starsan" equivalent, when it clearly isn't. So not really sure why it keeps getting compared as though it is.
I make no secret of the fact that we distribute Starsan in Australia, as i believe it's the best homebrew sanitiser product on the market. But if something better comes along, I have nothing tying me to 5 Star products & would happily change.

The KK product should be taken for what it is, & if you find it a better value product for your requirements, buy it.


Cheers Ross

 

[keedoery]

Hey Guys,

One of our customers who is a member on AHB came into our Springvale store and said that I should put up a post regarding the sanitiser so here it is.

The phosphoric sanitiser that we used to sell was a product that was made by Cleantech. Since Cleantech was purchased out by the American company Ecolab we have found that they have been a bit difficult to deal with and when we tried to engage them with regards to the sanitiser and why we had a couple customers that could taste the product we found them to be fairly non-responsive and very difficult to get a straight answer out of. For that reason we have recently changed suppliers and now have found a better chemical blending and supply company in locally in Sunshine (Victoria) to make sanitiser for us.

I know that Star San is a product that is very popular in America with a lot of brand recognition. With that said, I don't see the any value in importing a product that can be quite easily made in Australia. I did have a conversation with Jon Herskovitz from Five Star Chemicals requesting him to blend the Five Star Products in Australia at the 2012 ANHC conference however he did not seem interested in manufacturing the products locally because he thought that the scale of the Australian market was too small. So we decided to make our own type of sanitiser in Australia and seeing as a lot of home brewers like Star San we decided to model the product on Star San.

Our new sanitiser (which we have started to sell from 7th Jan 2012 onward and on the label says "New Formula") uses the same active ingredients as Star San in the same concentration as Star San. It has the same PH as Star San and also is used in the same way as Star San and has the same killing potential as Star San and is made with the same high foaming surfactant. Using the Star San product and the phosphoric sanitiser that we have locally blended we cannot tell the difference between the two. We have the sanitiser in 2 pack sizes of 350ml and 20Litre. The 20L pack size is extremely good value but you would have to have a brewery to warrant puchasing this amount as you only require 1.5ml/L concentration.

If anyone in the past has had ANY ISSUE WHATSOEVER with our old sanitiser at all we would be more than happy to upgrade you onto the new sanitiser for FREE.

If any of you guys out there already have the Star San product and would like to demo our phosphoric sanitiser to compare the two products I will give you a FREE bottle of sanitiser to compare. I only put one condition on this though, that being you need to report back to this forum with the results. I will only giving away 10 free sanitisers so hopefully at least a couple of the 10 free that we give away will take the time to post back on the forum.

If any of you guys have any specific questions at all please do not hesitate to contact me back on 03 90111698

Regards,

Kee

 

[Amber Fluid]

Gee that sounds like a good explaination to me and a generous offer for replacement. I don't know about 20L of it (sheesh that would last for my next 10 generations) but certainly 350ml sounds more economical too.

I'd certainly like to take up the offer for a free bottle to test but I really have enough Starsan at the moment to last the next few years and it is probably more suited to give locally.

Thanks for the update Kee.