Just how DO you get that juicy IPA taste and aroma?

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Just bottled. I did NOT cold crash this one, was extremely careful of any oxygen and as a result of that, there was quite a bit of trub and hop matter still suspended that wouldn't settle out. Next time I might try capturing some co2 from the blow-off and hook it up when I crash. Though I'm still a tiny bit scared to even try this. Though the trub is excessive and I should just do it.

The beer smelled just like a fresh bag of hops..!! Yes, finally! Really excited about this.

I measured sugar on a gm scale per bottle to 2.4vols carb so I wouldn't have to decant into a bottling bucket but there was just too much hop matter going into bottles. A stocking over the bottling wand clogged within split seconds so I did 10 bottles like this and decided to rack to a bucket for the rest. I was careful not to splash and racked underneath the liquid with a stocking on the end of the syphon that caught hop matter, though still doesn't help the trub though

I shook the hell out of 1x bottle and introduced as much o2 as I could before quickly capping to test against the others later. The rest sat for 10 minutes before banging the bottles to rouse more co2 before capping off.

I'm hoping the fresh bag of hops aroma will stay around. Will know within 1-2 weeks (though excess trub is known to oxidise too..) because my recent (last 6 months at least) pale ale's have all died off by then. Ever since I bought that darn crash freezer.. the smell today reminded me of my beers pre cold crash and bottling bucket days, so we'll see how she goes and rethink those 2x steps in a few weeks. Stay tuned!

 

[Hez]

Just bottled. I did NOT cold crash this one, was extremely careful of any oxygen and as a result of that, there was quite a bit of trub and hop matter still suspended that wouldn't settle out. Next time I might try capturing some co2 from the blow-off and hook it up when I crash. Though I'm still a tiny bit scared to even try this. Though the trub is excessive and I should just do it.

The beer smelled just like a fresh bag of hops..!! Yes, finally! Really excited about this.

I measured sugar on a gm scale per bottle to 2.4vols carb so I wouldn't have to decant into a bottling bucket but there was just too much hop matter going into bottles. A stocking over the bottling wand clogged within split seconds so I did 10 bottles like this and decided to rack to a bucket for the rest. I was careful not to splash and racked underneath the liquid with a stocking on the end of the syphon that caught hop matter, though still doesn't help the trub though

I shook the hell out of 1x bottle and introduced as much o2 as I could before quickly capping to test against the others later. The rest sat for 10 minutes before banging the bottles to rouse more co2 before capping off.

I'm hoping the fresh bag of hops aroma will stay around. Will know within 1-2 weeks (though excess trub is known to oxidise too..) because my recent (last 6 months at least) pale ale's have all died off by then. Ever since I bought that darn crash freezer.. the smell today reminded me of my beers pre cold crash and bottling bucket days, so we'll see how she goes and rethink those 2x steps in a few weeks. Stay tuned!

Great experiment (shaking the hell on one bottle).
There's one thing I don't have clear... Why do you think cold crashing affects the hoppyness? And why do you think not cold crashing but racking to other bucket with a sock will be a better option? Doing this you'll expose ALL your beer to the air.
In fact, being cold prevents the aromas from escaping

I finished my hoppy apa last week And it also smelled like a freshly open hop container but who knows what will happen in two weeks inside the bottle. Maybe I open one tonight to see how is it doing.. maybe I shouldnt... I can't wait another week it's killing me! :S

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Great experiment (shaking the hell on one bottle).
There's one thing I don't have clear... Why do you think cold crashing affects the hoppyness? And why do you think not cold crashing but racking to other bucket with a sock will be a better option? Doing this you'll expose ALL your beer to the air.

I finished my hoppy apa last week And it also smelled like a freahly open hop container but who knows what will happen in two weeks inside the bottle. Maybe I open one tonight to see how is it doing.. maybe I shouldnt... I can't wait another week it's killing me! :S

I'd have at least downed a 12 pack by now! very impatient

Cold crashing sucks oxygen in to the fermentation vessel. It's not clear to me (unless someone has a definite explanation) if cooling liquid absorbs this, thus oxidising and ruining the batch

I don't think racking to a bucket with a sock on the end is a good idea. I actualluy didn't plan on doing it. If you read closely you'll see I was bottling straight from primary in the beginning. All in all though I'm glad there's now 3x different experiments from this 1 batch to monitor (straight from fv, racked to bucket and introduced o2 at bottling)

 

[Hez]

I'd have at least downed a 12 pack by now! very impatient

Cold crashing sucks oxygen in to the fermentation vessel. It's not clear to me (unless someone has a definite explanation) if cooling liquid absorbs this, thus oxidising and ruining the batch

I don't think racking to a bucket with a sock on the end is a good idea. I actualluy didn't plan on doing it. If you read closely you'll see I was bottling straight from primary in the beginning. All in all though I'm glad there's now 3x different experiments from this 1 batch to monitor (straight from fv, racked to bucket and introduced o2 at bottling)

I suppose we will see what's true and what's ******** after all!
Bad thing about cold crashing is the carbonation takes longer...

 

[fdsaasdf]

Cold crashing sucks oxygen in to the fermentation vessel. It's not clear to me (unless someone has a definite explanation) if cooling liquid absorbs this, thus oxidising and ruining the batch

What do you ferment in? Have you considered sealing the container for crashing, or using a a valve or long blow-off tube?

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

I'm fermenting in a sealed plastic vessel with airlock. Not sure what the blow off tube would do to prevent intake of oxygen but I'm interested if I'm missing something, for sure

 

[fdsaasdf]

Could you just bung up your airlock hole when you cold crash?

The suggestion behind a longer blow-off hose is similar to the mechanism some brewers rig up to harvest CO2 - during active fermentation you'll generate CO2 which will push any O2 out of the line. I have used a 2m hose into an open water bottle containing star san in the past, but I've seen other people use collapsible water containers to collect CO2 as they inflate the container and then any 'suck back' is predominantly CO2 to avoid oxidisation.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks man. I saw a picture of what happened to a plastic fv when someone did this and it really crumpled. I'd also be wary of the seal failing and instead of crumpling, suck oxygen in through a weak seal. Plus, to bung up the hole you will let at least some o2 in whilst doing so

I like the idea of that long line, I guess you'd witness how much is being pressurised back into the line(?) Good idea! Think I'll give this a try. Thanks for sharing

 

[Hez]

I couldn't help myself yesterday and I opened one of my last APA bottles.

I took it from the fermenter fridge where they are now carbonating/conditioning at 19-20º and I put it into the fridge for 2hours and into the freezer for 15-20'.

As they have been carbonating just one week and I did a 24h cold crash (shy cold crash, I know it's suposed to be done from 2 to 7 days) I thought it would be interesting to pick the very last bottled one.
I bottle directly from the primary, I mean, for me, the one and only single fermenter, I don't rack to a secondary and I don't do bulk priming (I prime every bottle with table sugar one by one like a champ), so the last bottle usually has some trub and I thought this one will be already carbonated by now.
I was right. I used 2.9g of table sugar per 33cl bottle (3.0vol CO2) and it had a nice pop, good head and lots of bubbles!

This beer has 90%pale, 10% wheat, and ~16g/L of Citra and Amarillo hops in total for only 40IBU, so... a huge amount of hops at 0' and dry hop, in fact I dry hopped with half of them for 7 days and the other half only for 4 days, then I did the 24h cold crash. I mashed at 64-65º and I got OG ~1053 and FG 1006 ! So it should be quite dry. BTW I used several hop socks for all the hop additions to the kettle and I only removed them after chilling (immersion chiller) when I poured everything (non-hop-trub included) into the fermenter and I squeezed the **** out of those socks then inside the fermenter (sanitized hands).. hop puree jejeje All the dry hops were done directly to the fermenter without sock.

Even more details in: https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/biab-american-pale-ale-extra-hoppy.97202/

"OK, whatever... what was it like??!?!?!"
AMAZING! Were you talking about hop-juicy beer? THIS IS THE REAL HOP JUICE! I hope all the other bottles taste like this one...
Maybe it is the combination of low co-humulone / high alpha and beta acid hops or the combination of everything: recipe and procedure, but I think this is my best beer so far and by far.

Things I've done different from my other hoppy beer attempts (some will be relevant, some not):
- No crystal malt
- A little bit of wheat
- Better PH/salts control using gypsum, calcium chloride and the new one for me: lactic acid
- Lower mash temp (64-65º)
- Lower OG
- More sparge water in proportion (I got Higher efficiency than usual, ~78%)
- Use thermapen (better control of the temperature)
- Use multiple hop socks instead of only one big hop spider for the kettle additions
- Quite big 30' hop addition at 80º (cooling naturally down to ~65º after the 30')
- Squeeze the **** out of the hop socks after chilling before pitching the yeast
- Use a fermenter fridge! <-- I think this is key, no fermenter fridge no good beer.
- Fill all bottles, put the cap on top and then cap them starting from the first filled bottle <-- I don't think this improved anything, it felt stupid.

I got exactly what I was after, it is reasonably dry with a tiny residual fruity sweetness but not too much (I've read it can be the result of the amarillo hops in big quantity), crisp, light colour, big stable head refreshing, you can't tell it is 5.8%ABV, it feels less and very very very hoppy without being too bitter, it hasn't this astringent/sharp bitterness of my previous two attempts with just Citra. I love it. I'm going to make another witbier next, but after that one I will probably make this one again and I will try to push the limit of my fermenter (15L, I do "half batches", 10L).

I can't wait to drink them all!!!! But I will try and I'll tell you in a week and a half what is a regular one like (not the last one of the batch).
I'm super happy with the results! Thank you all for your help!

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Good onya Hez, great to hear they're working out well mate!

It sounds like you did most things right, and I'm interested and pleasantly suprised to hear about your 24hr cold crash, too. That's interesting it hasn't seemed to affect your o2 uptake. Sweet

It will be interesting to also watch how the 3.0 or so vols carb plays out. I get bombs at 2.4, but I pasteurise at 73 degrees and it's always after they've reached temp and expanded

 

[Hez]

Good onya Hez, great to hear they're working out well!l mate!

It sounds like you did most things right, and I'm interested and pleasantly suprised to hear about your 24hr cold crash, too. That's interesting it hasn't seemed to affect your o2 uptake. Sweet

Yes, i think that has to do with this one being the last bottle and having a little trub. I Guess It had more yeast. Let's see how the normal ones turn out. Can't wait..

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Ok, I'm definitely learning first hand about hops and oxidation. About 10 weeks ago I ordered some assorted American hops (Simcoe, Amarillo etc but really doesn't matter which types they were) in 50gm sachets NOT vacuum sealed. I remember how bright and fresh these all were upon arrival. Definitely no problem from the supplier (apart from packaging)

So I go to take a whiff today and could barely believe how badly these have all degraded. They're all so dead that I've thrown the lot. They smell nothing like how they did or how they should, just a cheesy, old, dead crappy aroma you wouldn't want in any sort of beer

These were not refrigerated, and have probably been bad for a long time prior to today. I don't know how much longer they would have kept in the freezer but out of refrigeration this is my experience

So, I've now witnessed oxidation of hops both in, and out of beer due to oxygen exposure. Whaddya know

 

[manticle]

You mean you kept them at room temp after buying?

Simple lesson learned for sure - treat hops like you would chicken fillets.

Not having a go - learning **** and problem solving is half the fun of brewing.

 

[mtb]

An easy way to re-seal your hop packets after opening is to vacuum seal. This would obviously require that you buy your hops from a sponsor who uses vacuum sealed packets, ie Brewman.
DU99 threw up a link for these Sunbeam vac sealers in the eBay / gumtree finds thread - http://www.2ndsworld.com.au/sunbeam-foodsaver-id-VS4300

It's as simple as open bag, get hops that you need, vacuum out air and re-seal using the machine.

 

[goatchop41]

These were not refrigerated, and have probably been bad for a long time prior to today. I don't know how much longer they would have kept in the freezer but out of refrigeration this is my experience

Refrigeration is the bare minimum. Ideal on a home storage level is vacuum seal then store in the freezer.
Living the dream is a nitrogen flush before sealing

 

[Hez]

Refrigeration is the bare minimum. Ideal on a home storage level is vacuum seal then store in the freezer.
Living the dream is a nitrogen flush before sealing

Hops in the freezer? I thought the back part of the fridge was good enough

 

[goatchop41]

Hops in the freezer? I thought the back part of the fridge was good enough

As I said, fridge is the bare minimum if you want a decent life on your hops

 

[Lethaldog]

I always vac seal and freeze, use what I need to on brewday then seal again and at all times in the freezer and I find my hops last as long as it takes me to use them, for some variety’s this could be over a year as I usually buy in 500g -1kg lots, your supposed to lose a little bit over time but sticking to this I’ve never noticed so it’s obviously minimal!

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Well you're gonna laugh, but I fridged a couple tonight (bottled 4 days now) and the flavour and aroma is there so far! Though still green and full of what seems to be diacetly. Like a butter menthol type taste and smell coating the juicy goodness. Also had this with a recent IPA done with 5% Joe White cara malt and am beginning to think it could actually be that.. I'm going to throw that stuff out and just go crystal instead or even single malt. It just seems to be a crappy malt

Will taste in another few days at least to see if it dissapears leaving only magnificent hops and malt behind and keep you posted. It's 100% in the aroma dept so far though otherwise!

 

[mtb]

If you're getting butter menthol type flavours in your beer, don't throw out what could be perfectly good malt as a result. It's very likely to be diacetyl as you noted. How long did you ferment for?