Just how DO you get that juicy IPA taste and aroma?

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Then there's this: from a highly respected contributor on another forum. I haven't been leaving the caps loose, which may be a problem.. will definitely give this a go!

Here's a link to his bottling vs kegging thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bottling-tips-for-the-homebrewer.94812/

 

[droid]

I think the only help with bottling I've received is people saying it can't be done.. not sure it can be done for home brewers???

There is a guy in Germany who makes a beer with 12g/l of hops. Someone said to him, you know you can make the same beer with 7g/l and his reply? If you think you can make it with 7g/l you go and make it.

Maybe just use more hops, do a five day @20C dry-hop at 5g/l then chill before transferring to cold bottles, filling from the base of the bottle?

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Then this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/purging-bottles-with-co2.211820/ where someone experiments with purging the head space of o2. The result describes my, non purged pale ales and IPA's. There's even a big difference in oxidation/plysical colour compared to those that weren't purged

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

While I love the idea of this, I've tried and it doesn't work. I've used half a kg of flameout type juicy hops. Same story as when I use 70gms unfortunately

There is a guy in Germany who makes a beer with 12g/l of hops. Someone said to him, you know you can make the same beer with 7g/l and his reply? If you think you can make it with 7g/l you go and make it.

Maybe just use more hops, do a five day @20C dry-hop at 5g/l then chill before transferring to cold bottles, filling from the base of the bottle?

 

[Danscraftbeer]

No immediate fix but pressure fermenting, no exposure of oxygen at all gets the goods, at least with loaded up late additions.
I do a small IBU level First Wort Hop, Flame out additions and Hop Stand. Chill to 70c for the largest hop additions like last brew I used 7.5g per litre whirled well and let sit at 70c for 30 minutes. Chill down, transfer to kegmenter, pitch etc. Never open the kegmenter. Dry hopping itself can introduce oxygen counteracting the effort. c02 pressure transfers to serving kegs. Serving kegs purged by filling completely with sanitiser then co2 forced out all the sanitiser purges the keg of all oxygen before transfer.

 

[user 37368]

I've had good success using this recipe as a guide. Only used vermont but my bugs are starting to give really low attenuation so I might get some 1316 for next time.

https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerks-brewing-co-juicy-bits-new-england-style-ipa/

I usually start the hop stands between 99c and 95c with similar results. Some people wait longer, I'm still at about 80c after 40 mins of hop stand.

Toffee malt as the dextrin is nice and goes well with the juicy flavor, I just did melba/ella/topaz which is a bit tropical punchy. I think the AU higher AA hops are difficult to manage, but I probably put too much in also.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Where can I look for and what do I actually need to purge? I'm willing to try this out for myself

Way I'd do it, is: There is no oxygen in a finished fermenting, well sealed fermenter filled with beer ready to bottle, so no problem at this point. From here, I'd purge the bottling bucket and wand, then transfer in with carb sucrose already inside the bucket. Then, when bottling I'd purge either each bottle and then headpace once the bottling wand is removed to reveal the space which is now filled once again with pure oxygen to remove this as best as possible before quickly capping

How's this sound, and where do I find this stuff?! Is it just a gas bottle with on/off regulator?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Peter Wolfes thesis on hop flavours will explain a lot if you google it. Here is an extract off Braukaiser's extract of the findings.

1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor: “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers. This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.

Here is the rest of the blog
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

I wonder if this is actually true about the liner? I'd imagine it's actually oxygen instead but, I just don't know for sure yet

 

[Danscraftbeer]

That headspace in the bottle is a debate in itself. General thought is the bit of oxygen gets eaten in the bottle ferment and the yeast may need that little bit of O2 to ferment properly in the bottle etc.
I only (Draught) bottle from the keg now and that headspace would be the only exposure to O2 but its not enough to spoil the beer in any way I have found even when stored for months.
Edit: Considering (Draught) the beer is carbonated so when you remove the carb cap with dip tube after filling the bottle the Co2 releasing from the beer may be enough to purge that headspace by the time you get the cap on.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I wonder if this is actually true about the liner? I'd imagine it's actually oxygen instead but, I just don't know for sure yet

Well he's no mug got a bachelors degree and a masters degree. Check out his whole thesis.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Just found the 'Blichmann beer gun' seems like what I need

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

I'm not implying he is. And I do remember personally pulling out Coke cap plugs and chewing on them as a kid. They're very tasty! So maybe something to it.

Though, just looking at my caps and the really incredibly tasty IPA I had last night that caused me to create this thread, they're the same as all the others I have in the drawer. Funny thing is, the IPA one actually still smells fantastic! So it indeed has taken in something. Though obviously this did not affect my perception of the bottled product because I'm attempting to emulate this

Well he's no mug got a bachelors degree and a masters degree. Check out his whole thesis.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Ok, in thinking more about this, I'm going to try this route first before paying money for a wand and to rent gas cylinders. I'll update over time with the results

1. Cut back my sulphate to half of what I'm using now (which will probably help with the mash also. I don't have a ph meter and 12g sulphate may be killing this too) As I've tasted in the past, zero sulphate is 'meh' 8gms is pretty good. 12gms is never good

2. Transfer to bottling bucket much more carefully and slowly, with the tube BELOW the surface rather than above

3. Test a few beers with the cap straight on vs allowing them to sit loosely in top for half an hour or so. This should tell me alot before doing anything else

Thanks Manticle

I'm not a massive fan of stupidly hop forward beers but 300 ppm seems much too high to me. I'd aim for 150 - 200 max and that's presuming mash pH is taken care of.

Next - reduce oxygen exposure during conditioning and packaging.

Obviously hop type and freshness will also impact.

Try dry hopping in stages, dry hop warm, dry hop cold, first wort hop, split late hopping into small hop doses every 3-5 mins from 20 to 0, try chilling if you are no chilling, bump up whirlpool additions, cube hop if cubing.

Lots of tricks, play around.

 

[mtb]

12gms is never good

Says who? Water chemistry isn't that black and white. Plenty of AHB threads and other literature will tell you that.

It depends on your water profile, and your target profile. I added 15g of Calcium Sulfate to yesterday's IPA and that's pretty much standard for my IPA profile.

Oxidisation is almost certainly your issue here. You don't necessarily need a fancy pants beer gun, just any method of purging the bottle will do. A Sodastream bottle, adapter, reg, and short length of gas line will suffice.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks mate. I'm just making known my personal findings on the 12g. Whilst this apparently takes my profile to 300ppm which I assume would make character 'pop', I've never actually had a hoppy beer with it, despite using the same amount each time.

Thinking back, the lesser amounts have always been hoppier for some reason or another, same oxidation for all batches and mostly the same recipe, too. So it's from my personal experience and water I say this.

I've also had great advice from another brewer who says "at the end of the day, it's taste that matters, not numbers in a textbook" and he's absolutely correct

Says who? Water chemistry isn't that black and white. Plenty of AHB threads and other literature will tell you that.

It depends on your water profile, and your target profile. I added 15g of Calcium Sulfate to yesterday's IPA and that's pretty much standard for my IPA profile.

Oxidisation is almost certainly your issue here. You don't necessarily need a fancy pants beer gun, just any method of purging the bottle will do. A Sodastream bottle, adapter, reg, and short length of gas line will suffice.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Wow, this is interesting info

You know, I've used 6g chloride instead of the 3g I normally used and less gypsum one time in a hoppy brew and it was possibly one of the best aromatic one's I've actually done.. plus, another thing I definitely noted was a really crazy fermentation..? I'm not sure why. Same everything and yeast as normal so I might try this too. Could have something to do with my mash ph because I don't have a meter

Cheers

I find it funny to think that apparently sulphates boost hop character but I don't think this is the case(?) In thinking back on my experiences anyway

when your saying juicy, that makes me think of NEIPA style which is the polar opposite of typical ways to make an IPA.

They are using 200ppm of Cholride and only 50-70ppm of sulphate, basically swapping the 2 around, pushing high chlorides.

You want to chase a heap of late hops, eg 5min or less, flameout, WP @ less than 80c, WP @` less than 60c, dry hop day 1 of fermentation and again dry hop day 4 of fermentation.

Use really fruity hops like Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, Simcoe, Amarillo etc etc.

Whilst bottling though your O2 pickup will be off the charts and basically wrecking your hops oil stability and they would break down quite fast.

Google, closed system brewing and dissolved oxygen and you will see it takes alot of equipment and effort to get the best out of your hops.

 

[yankinoz]

1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor: “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers. This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.

Here is the rest of the blog
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/[/QUOTE]

What about PET bottles?

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Ok. Who's usibg hop spiders? Are they a step up from throwing straight in? I need to get one to remove green particles from the wort so at least I can rule that out too

After downing a longneck of my latest pale ale (it's nice and everything, and I'm so far impressed with the first trial of Maris Otter) but the hop dept is all just "old".

Tastes like a Coopers pale ale, like all I can taste is some bitterness and a bunch of really old hops, like, just the old green particles that taste like they're second hand from someone else's nice IPA.. I really want to overhaul everything I'm doing to hoppy brews. Very happy with my pilsners but these hoppy beers just aren't hitting the mark

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Um. then Fresh Hops! Do you grow your own? Do it if you can. I know the flavor of old pellet hops, not good. Adds a stale flavor to your beer. Exception on different hops. That's why they have a storage quality on different types but you just cant beat fresh hops for punchy juicy hopped up beer. Freshest ingredients for all of it really. You can get away with longer years on Malt grain.

and, No on the hop spiders IMO. Its a cage!, trapping the true nature of the beast to blend with your malts. The simple old whirl pool has excellent effect as long as you don't disturb the cone when draining etc. Very clear wort is rewarding especially when it smells like awesome Nectar.