How to get started in Cider. The definitive(ish) guide to beginner&#39

[Airgead]

Adding fruit in secondary is pretty common. I do it all the time with my meads (not ciders though... If I start making berry ciders, someone please come and take my man card away).

You will be dumping into an acidic, alcoholic, anaerobic environment. Not exactly friendly conditions for nasties. the only one you really need to worry about is aecetobacter which will turn things to vinegar. That likes oxygen so make sure you introduce as little as possible. Also, add the fruit just when primary subsides. That way the yeast will fire up again quickly, scavenge any introduced oxygen and also out compete any other bugs you put in there.

You can also add the fruit in the primary which is safer but I find that the vigorous primary fermentation scrubs off a lot of the flavours. If I add when primary has subsided I get a much more gentle secondary fermentation that leaves the flavours intact.

Cheers
Dave

 

[LiquidGold]

Thanks for that Airgead, very informative. Do you ever use vanilla beans or spices in your ciders as that is another approach I am considering

Cheers

EDIT: more to the point.

 

[Airgead]

Again, not in ciders. i'm a bit of a purist there (or more importantly, the missus is a bit if a purist).

I do make spiced meads though.

The trick is to add a little, wait, taste and if it needs more, wait longer or add another small amount. Its really easy to overdo spices. I add in secondary essentially as a dry hop. The only exception is ginger which is riddles with lactic bacteria. that I tend to add as a tea made from boiled ginger (dry or fresh).

Normally, 1/2 a stick of cinnamon or 2 cloves in a 5l batch for a few days is enough. Vanilla you could dose with essence to work out how much or steep an inch or so of vanilla pod for a day or so.

Whatever you do, use the smallest amount you can. taste early. taste often. Pull the spices out just before you think there is enough. They may intensify with aging and its much easier to add more later than to take some out if it becomes too intense.

Cheers
Dave

 

[LiquidGold]

Ok yeah that makes sense to add little by little and tasting often instead of hoping for the best. I think I have a pretty good idea how I'll go about the next batch whenever I finally get around to it.

Thanks for your input, you have been very helpfull.

LG

 

[einnebcj]

Thanks Airgead (and other contributors) for this post - finally gave me the 'get-up' to put my first cider down.

Here's what I did....
Picked up about 8 kgs of mixed Granny Smith, Royal Gala and Sundowner apples from the Central Markets for $1.50 a kg and about 3 kgs of pears for the same price. Popped into Coles and got 2x2.4l Apple and Pear juice - 2 for $6.

Recipe went as follows:
4.8l of Apple Pear Juice
2.6 kg of Granny's
3 kg of pears
2.5 kg of sundowners/royal galas - all juiced up in the Breville
200g of Demera sugar (because it was in the pantry) steeped in about 500ml of boiled water with two tea bags
Pitched about 5g of Mangrove Jacks Cider yeast into the 10 litre total liquid

Glad wrap over the top and see what the hell happens!

Stay tuned.......

Chris

 

[heyhey]

Is there a way to deactivate the yeast to retain some natural sweetness without boiling and consequently changing the flavours?

 

[manticle]

Also adding your flavours to a glass bit by bit and calculating how much you need for a whole batch can be an indicator. Obviously flavour is a function of more than just amounts (time, temperature,etc) but you can get a rough guide for additions that way.

Heyhey; I've never tried it but bottle pasteurisation is one method people report success with. Info in detail on the homebrewtalk site.

 

[heyhey]

Cheers boss, if only the missus could appreciate a something more bitter LOL. But then again, I don't want to be with a bloke

 

[manticle]

What do you want Dave?

I wanna **** a bloke. Then I want a big strong bloke to **** me in the arse. You go and play with your girly tits ya fag. Straight - it's the new gay.

Sorry - thinking of another topic. Fully fermented cider won't be especially bitter unless you put loads of apple pips in. Will likely be tart, towards sour and definitely dry.

For anyone who doesn't understand:

The above is from a comedy skit, linked below. The use of the name Dave is entirely incidental to the OP of this thread as you will see if you follow the link.

I make and enjoy cider and do not equate it to a testament of someone's masculinity/femininity/effemininity, gender or sexuality. I am also not concerned with anybody's innate, chosen or preferred: sexuality, gender or beverage. I made a joke (really a reference to someone else's joke) and I'm very, very sorry that some people are stupid enough to misunderstand.

 

[heyhey]

That's what I meant, tart and dry. And that has nothing to do with bloke on bloke relations.

 

[manticle]

For context of the above:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71795-gay-marriage-law-passed-in-nz/?p=1087609

 

[heyhey]

I know, I've already read the last few pages of that thread

 

[manticle]

Someone obviously hasn't.

People should read properly before getting uppity and reporting posts they don't understand.

Not aimed at anyone specific because I have no idea who it was but please, whoever you are -try and work out context, especially when offered. The above stuff about girly tits and so forth was from a comedy skit, linked in my other post which is very plainly suggesting homophobia is entirely illogical and absurd.


Unless it was just a couple of swear words that made someone call the adults - in which case try this forum

http://www.kidzworld.com/forums

or the i take stuff literally forum. Whichever shoe fits I guess.

Sorry Airgead for the totally off topic stuff.

 

[///]

So I was wondering;

* about adding sulphur to inhibit any unwanteds, esp for juice that may not have yeast pitched straight away
* using a candied sugar, if most wine yeast can only go after glucose then what about invert
* if folks want to sweeten and stop re-fermentation couldn't you just filter with a 5 micron filter and pasturise. Could do this in a cornie and a large brewing kettle, heating the water slowly to pasturising temps and cooling in your fridge. Would save the hassles with the sweetness dissapeering? Standard cornie should be able to take and expand/vacumm from the heat/cool cycle.
* and does leaving on the skins and any oxidation of such add any colour if using real fruit?

Scotty

 

[manticle]

From my experience/understanding:

Commercial ciders use sulphites to stabilise and increase shelf life. It's unnecessary in non commercial stuff and it gives me a headache.

Invert sugar is fructose and glucose yes? Can't wine yeast ferment fructose? Interesting idea if not.

Pretty sure people filter and keg and just keep cold for sweeter cider. Pasteurising and adding things like potassiuam sorbate are used to hinder yeast activity (and sulphites) - just depends what you want to/don't want to add. Chance of pasteurising changing flavour maybe? Do you pasteurise beer for shelf life? is there a point of comparison with flavour changes?
Bottle pasteurisation is mentioned above.

Last one I can't answer. Proper cider doesn't peel the apples when juicing but it does use the juice rather than any solids.

Also racking and keeving are methods used for less dry cider but are more complex than 'simple cider' methods.

 

[Airgead]

So I was wondering;

* about adding sulphur to inhibit any unwanteds, esp for juice that may not have yeast pitched straight away
* using a candied sugar, if most wine yeast can only go after glucose then what about invert
* if folks want to sweeten and stop re-fermentation couldn't you just filter with a 5 micron filter and pasturise. Could do this in a cornie and a large brewing kettle, heating the water slowly to pasturising temps and cooling in your fridge. Would save the hassles with the sweetness dissapeering? Standard cornie should be able to take and expand/vacumm from the heat/cool cycle.
* and does leaving on the skins and any oxidation of such add any colour if using real fruit?

Scotty

Hi Scotty

Yep. Sulphur will work as a preservative and stabiliser same as it does for wine. I don't use it cos my missus is allergic. It will mean that you have to force carb which is fine if you keg but a lot of the questions here seem to be coming from those poor sods who still bottle.

Never tried an invert sugar. Might be worth an experiment. I'm not sure how the wine yeast will respond. Its probably strain dependent. i'll have to look into that.Although thinking about it, Honey is an invert sugar (at least partially) and the wine yeast has no trouble with that. I think its the more complex sugars wine yeast won't eat. not sure it cares whether its invert or not. Some candy sugar with some longer chain sugars might be a goer though.

You can sterile filter and/or pasturise but again, requires force carbing. I'd go the filter over the pasturisation. I spent years in industrial control designing control systems for industrial pasturisers. They sound simple but to get them working without overheating or changing flavours is not simple. Not really sure how it would go on a homebrew scale. Again, it limits you to force carbing.

Generally for cider you crush the whole apple, skin, seeds, core. The pulp is discarded and just the juice retained so there are no skins as such to leave the juice on. Its not like a wine where the whole fruit is fermented then the juice is pressed from the skins later. The juice will naturally oxidise on its own if left exposed. That does darken it and will change the flavour. A little oxidisation of the juice can be a desirable thing. I generally leave my juice overnight to settle after pressing and I get just a touch of oxidisation to darken the colour.

Cheers
Dave

 

[fletcher]

just wanted to pop in a note here. not related to any above post but wanted to strongly promote just how much bottle conditioning REALLY work. I wanted to echo the sentiments of people like JDW81 and Airgead and others who've mentioned it. for all the newbies to cider (like me)...it works well.

I've had a simple batch (i think i'd even mentioned it at the start of this thread) that i'd bottled some of and just left in my fridge. remembered they were there yesterday and tried one, and it's been conditioning for months now. tasted bloody amazing.

 

[///]

Reading thru a few wine making books they definately do not make Sulphur an easy thing to consider. If we can avoid it then great

I'll check on the invert as well, was just thinking out loud.

The 5 micron is really only a rough filter for yeast and in beer, protein. Sterile is absolutes less than 1 micron, and these do affect flavour. Also needs a series of filtrations, aka DE, a DE trap filter (only needed if any bleed) then a <5 nominal and <1 absloute.

Pasturising can and will impact flavour, but it would be easy in a get to temp and regulate, the cooling would be another matter. But a skinny tall post mix keg would chill down quickly enough.

Anyways, things you can do.

 

[FlyingRain]

I've done a few kit ciders. About to do my first cider from apples.

But I have a question that's rather newbish. When I chuck the apples in the blender, does the whole apple go in, or do I remove the core/pips etc?

Also, you brewers keep on saying that you buy some juice from Woolies/Coles/Aldi for taste. But from what I've read elsewhere, you need juice without preservatives, vitamin c, flavouring etc. When I've looked at Woolies and Coles they all have something added. What gives?

 

[The Gas Man]

I've done a few kit ciders. About to do my first cider from apples.

But I have a question that's rather newbish. When I chuck the apples in the blender, does the whole apple go in, or do I remove the core/pips etc?

Also, you brewers keep on saying that you buy some juice from Woolies/Coles/Aldi for taste. But from what I've read elsewhere, you need juice without preservatives, vitamin c, flavouring etc. When I've looked at Woolies and Coles they all have something added. What gives?

If you've got the time, take a trip up to Darkes Forest Orchard (near Helensburgh).

They sell their apple juice in both filtered and unfiltered state.

Just add yeast to their juice, latose sugar (for sweetness) and pear juice after fermentation has completed for additional sweetness.

The girls love it.

I'm making one this weekend just in time for Christmas.