How To Best Stop Infection?

[onescooter]

I have a few questions that I need to find answers to or else I think I'll go batty.
First of all, I did an AG brew last weekend, placed in a cube overnight to chill and then poured onto a pack of dried yeast the next day. Started bubbling within 36 hours or so and then within another couple of days I tasted what could be described as a citrusy type of flavour. Beer is now thrown out. I have my next brew in the cube ready to go and it would kill me to lose that too.
My theory is that if you can learn something from your mistakes then sooner or later you will closer to being mistake free.
My questions are these -
if the wort goes in to the cube hot then it should be sanitized when it comes out. So does that mean that my infection must be in the fermenter?
I have taken to cleaning all my equipment when I have finished using it and then rinsing everything out with a bleach solution just before I use it. Is this a good way to stop infection or should I be doing more?
I have heard not to mill grains in the same place you brew. But when I place my grains in the mash tun, the dust flies around. Not heaps, but there is still dust. If this is a problem, how long should I wait before I empty the 'no chill' cube into the fermenter?
What is the reason behind the grain dust infecting your brew?

Since getting this infection in my beers I have probably lost 30% of brews, which is far too many for my liking. I was always very lax in my sanitation, and for my first 5-6 brews there was no problem. Now I am never confident that my brew will come out right. Even after implementing my cleaning routine. I am now using different fementers and a different fermenting fridge and I still get the same flavour. My thoughts are that it must be my environment that must be my downfall, but I'm not sure how to fix it.
If anyone could help me at all I would be very much appreciative. Hopefully I have given enough info.
Cheers
Scott.

 

[Stuster]

Some thoughts.
You still need to clean out your cube. It can still contaminate your wort even though the wort going in to it is hot.

What kind of bleach are you using? How well do you clean it out? This sounds like it might be the cause to me.

There is lactobacillus (and other bacteria) in the grain. If you are no-chilling, there is no real reason to have your fermenter near your mash tun when you are mashing in, is there?

If you suspect some contamination, be very thorough in your cleaning. Take everything apart, soak it in bleach or napisan, clean well, dry well, put away.

Anyway, it happens to everyone in the end. Get through it and practise good sanitation after that and your taste buds will thank you. :super:

 

[hughman666]

i lost a couple of brews a while back due to a dodgy cube which started swelling up after 2 days.

these days i dont use the cube because its hard/impossible to scrub every part of it so i now just use an ice bath with the fermenter and go from boiling wort down to ~25c in approx 3 hrs and then pitch the yeast pronto.

i never found where my source of infection was but since i went to pitching yeast inside 3 hrs i haven't had the problem...

anyway you can never be too paranoid with cleaning IMO.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I have a few questions that I need to find answers to or else I think I'll go batty.

. Started bubbling within 36 hours or so and then within another couple of days I tasted what could be described as a citrusy type of flavour. Beer is now thrown out. I have my next brew in the cube ready to go and it would kill me to lose that too.
My theory is that if you can learn something from your mistakes then sooner or later you will closer to being mistake free.

Citrusy flavour.....Oh dear....you thre out some really nice beer...

Learn from your mistakes..if it tastes citrusy in the first few days, you have a great beer..


An infection, which will only happen towards the end will make you , will make you heave like nothing else..


Sounds like you wasted some good beers...

 

[0M39A]

lol, thats what i was thinking... sure you didnt accidentally use some cascade hops?

I've only had one infection, and by god did i know it. smell alone was enough, but the taste... yech.

 

[chillamacgilla73]

I recently had an infected brew and decided to step back and review my brewing process. I determined/guessed the most likely cause of infection as being insufficient cleaning of the 'downstream' side of the kettle ball valve and hose.

If you step back and think through every possible site of infection in your brewing process I reckon you could identify the cause. As you no chill, isolating the cause should be a lot easier.

A thought, do you pull the tap apart and give it a good clean after each fermentation? The first time I stripped my tap I was amazed at how much crud was in there!

Good luck onescooter. I feel your pain.... :beer:

 

[onescooter]

Well it was a sour taste. Won an award in a Lambic class, but not what I was after.
My only thought with the grain was that the dust may stay around in the air a lot longer than I may realise.
Maybe even a day later the dust may be hurting me.
I use white king ( 4ml per litre) on everything.
My sanitation procedure,
After brew goes into keg, fermenter gets cleaned, tap is disassembled and cleaned, airlock and grommet removed and cleaned, 'O' ring removed and cleaned. Everything soaked in bleach solution for a couple of hours. Rinsed, Dried, put away.
Before next use, everything is bleached and rinsed again before assembly and used again.
The cube gets rinsed after use, very hard to scrub out, bleached, and put away. Bleached before use.
I'm pretty sure I had this sour flavour when I used the conventional chill method.
Maybe the cube is the problem. How long before you replace your cube.

 

[DJR]

Hmm... could be chlorine off flavours, or bad stuff from the water you use to rinse. Try a different sanitiser like iodophor, no rinse then. Pitch more yeast?

If the cube worries you, get out the gloves and safety glasses and mix up some 1% caustic in there. Personally i've had one going for about 25 batches and it's been fine.

 

[kabooby]

Using bleach is OK but you need to give it a good rinse afterwards with some clean water or some boiled water. If you do not rinse with clean water then there is still bleach residue on your equipment.

Maybe the sour citrus flavour is from your bleach residue, Is it a scented bleach :unsure:

Try the no name napisan "sodium percarbonate" that is unscented

Hope this helps

Kabooby

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

JEEZUS KABOOBY


Napi-san is supposed to be a secret... :unsure:

 

[kabooby]

JEEZUS KABOOBY
Napi-san is supposed to be a secret... :unsure:

Must be top secret if I read it on this forum :huh:

Just helping out a fellow brewer. No one likes to see beer got to waste :chug:

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You will put all those brew shops selling sodium met out of business...

 

[onescooter]

I do rinse out the bleach quite a few times before anything goes in there. And I never used to use bleach until i started to get this flavour. Researched, started using bleach, 3 brews all good, sour flavour back again.

 

[NRB]

If it's become such a problem, do what I did - I cleaned EVERYTHING with a combination of approaches. First of all was a hot sodium percarbonate soak for 24 hours, rinsed with boiling water. Followed it up with a hot caustic wash and rinsed with boiling water. I then sanitised it with iodophor and left to dry. Prior to use I sanitised with hydrogen peroxide and haven't had any trouble.

I replaced a suspect vinyl racking hose too. The kettle tap could be harbouring a bacteria that isn't killed during the boil as it's in a protected environment. Have you pulled it apart?


Are you storing things wet or dry between brews? Make sure you let things dry.

Why are you filling your fermenter in the same place as you crush/mash? Why not fill the fermenter in a room inside well away from grain dust. Don't fill the fermenter wearing the same clothes as you crushed/brewed in.

Are you aerating? If so, by what method?

 

[Stuster]

Just to check, is it a no-scent bleach? For me it's hot napisan soak, rinse, rinse, rinse. Then iodophor before use, no rinse.

 

[PistolPatch]

NRB's advice (two posts above) sounds like the safest to me.

Two other points...

Chilla's advice on cleaning your kettle tap is MOST important.

I've written this before many times but not for a while...

One QLD brewer lost over 1000 litres of beer because of this. He posted on the forum several times but no one could identify the source of his infection. After all these litres, posts and time, it was his ketlle tap. The outside does not get exposed to sanitisation temps.

In saying this, I don't think your problem would come from this by the sour description.

Use Hot Water to 'Kill' Bleach

Bleach is most active in cold water. Cold water is what you should use to dilute bleach when wanting to kill bad stuff.

HOT water is what you should use to neutralise bleach. So, when you want to rinse bleach from something, make sure you have the hot tap turned on otherwise there is a possibility that you will get a medicinal taste to your beers.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[matti]

Nrb you really change clothes? good stuff.

I would try to shorten the lagtime by trying to chill the brew quicker and then aerated the buggery as you pitch.

Theere is no denying that the quicker the yeast takes hold the lesser chance the other bacterias have to taint the wort.

But do check all taps o-ring etc etc

 

[geoffi]

Just to check, is it a no-scent bleach? For me it's hot napisan soak, rinse, rinse, rinse. Then iodophor before use, no rinse.

This is exactly my procedure, and since doing this I have never had an infection problem. Although I don't use brandname napisan, rather generic, which never has any "enhancements" like scents, and costs fewer cents.

I bought "iodophor" in bulk, very cheap, and am VERY liberal with it.

Bleach is good, but I heard it is much more effective mixed 50/50 with vinegar. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES MIX THE BLEACH AND VINEGAR DIRECTLY. ADD ONE TO THE WATER, MIX, THEN ADD THE OTHER. MIXING THEM DIRECTLY IS A VERY BAD IDEA. (Sorry about the shouting but I don't want anybody getting hurt.)

 

[NRB]

Nrb you really change clothes? good stuff

Nah, but trying to help anything that could be a potential problem for him. If I'm working with yeast I always wear freshly laundered clothes and prepare the room with bleach/lysol sprays. I also use a makeshift glovebox that has been sprayed with isopropyl alcohol 15 minutes prior to use.

I bought "iodophor" in bulk, very cheap, and am VERY liberal with it.

Are you very liberal in concentration, or do you mean you make large volumes? If you're making up a solution greater than 12ppm you might need to consider a wash step. There's no reason to increase the concentration - more doesn't always equal better.

Bleach is good, but I heard it is much more effective mixed 50/50 with vinegar. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES MIX THE BLEACH AND VINEGAR DIRECTLY. ADD ONE TO THE WATER, MIX, THEN ADD THE OTHER. MIXING THEM DIRECTLY IS A VERY BAD IDEA. (Sorry about the shouting but I don't want anybody getting hurt.)

Adding a little vinegar to a bleach solution is sound advice. The lowered pH makes the hypochlorite much more active. As for mixing bleach and vinegar together, it's supposed to produce chlorine gas but I've never witnessed it and I've deliberately tried it h34r: . The chemistry says it should happen, I've just never seen it occur.

My usual cleaning routine is to soak in HOT sodium percarbonate until cool, wipe surfaces with a sponge, rinse with hot water, rinse again with hot water, splash around iodohor, dry and store dry. Prior to use I splash around iodophor, drip dry until no longer dripping but surface is still wet, then use.

 

[onescooter]

I am a bit of a poverty brewer. no kettle taps for me. I have to use a siphon hose into my cube. I rinse with cold water not hot water so that is one thing I will be changing. As for the reason for mashing in the same place as I am filling the fermenter, I didn't think that it would be a problem. Maybe it is, I should probably change rooms to the kitchen. By the way, I really appreciate all the advice. Anything I can do to minimise the risks is fantastic.
Cheers
Scott