How Do Microbrews Change For The Worse When Production Is Scaled Up.

[maxymoo]

hi everyone, this is my first post. i've been doing all grain brewing for about a year (after a couple of crappy kit brews i got sick of the "home brew" taste, i didn't realise that partial mash was an option and went straight to all AG!), and i'm now feeling comfortable enough with the process that i'm starting to think more about recipes.

anyway, i've got a question. i've read in another post that microbrews (like fat yak, james squire, little creatures) change their recipes for the worse when they gain popularity and scale up production.

does anyone have any ideas about what this means in practice? i suppose with "premium" beers they wouldn't be brewing with sugar. so what other things do they do to reduce costs or increase efficiency? do they replace low AA hops with smaller amounts of high AA hops? do they use cheaper malts? (at my home brew shop the only australian malt they have is Joe White, but are there cheaper/worse australian hops that homebrewers don't know about?) do they dry hop for a shorter time?

look forward to hearing what some smarter people than me think!

cheers,
max

 

[Ash in Perth]

When a brewery increases in size, they usually improve their technology as well. This will improve brewhouse efficiency so less malt is required to give the same wort. This saves money, increases capacity and has no negative effect on beer flavour.

Done well, brewery expansions should have no detrimental effect on the beers they produce. However, they do give better control and help to produce a more consistent beer.

Any changes you have observed in any beers (can you be more specific?) will most likely be a result of intentional recipe changes.

 

[scott_penno]

If you take Fat Yak and James Squire Golden Ale as examples, I'd suggest the change in recipe is not related to scaling up, but more to do with appealing to a wider audience (to increase sales/volume) by dumbing down the beer somewhat...

sap.

 

[Nick JD]

Commercial beer is like Pop Music: to appease the shareholder you aim at the widest possible target. VB is the Justin Bieber of beer.

The drinker is not the primary customer; the shareholder is.

 

[Bribie G]

I came across a good example of this a couple of years ago at the James Squire Bar in Sydney, with a group of people so it wasn't just me imagining it. The micro produced brews on the day such as the Pilsener, Hopthief, Highwaymans etc were very tasty. However the "mass market" varieties - Golden Ale and Amber Ale which had probably been brewed at Tooheys at Lidcombe were both extremely meh .

Edit:

<soapbox>
big breweries have had a lot of practice with this in the last half century. They take over a good local tasty brand (e.g. Powers in Queensland) then gradually year by year denature it until it tastes like crap. Then sales fall. So they withdraw it because of poor sales and replace it with VB whatever. QED.

</soapbox>

 

[Ash in Perth]

All good points raised above.

I came across a good example of this a couple of years ago at the James Squire Bar in Sydney, with a group of people so it wasn't just me imagining it. The micro produced brews on the day such as the Pilsener, Hopthief, Highwaymans etc were very tasty. However the "mass market" varieties - Golden Ale and Amber Ale which had probably been brewed at Tooheys at Lidcombe were both extremely meh .

I suspect the brewer at the brewpub may not be following the exact same recipe as the production brewery...

 

[Tony]

I think when brewing on a small scale, its easier to make beers using better and more ingredients, but once popularity kicks in, slowly ramping back on the expensive hops and imported malts wont be noticed by all.

I think a lot of these brands get a name with nice beers but these dont always fit the "australian beer drinkers" taste so they get ramped back in character to get some money in from the wanna bees with no taste that think they are hip drinking james squire and beers of this nature.

I remember when JS started out and the beers were much better...... they are still good beers.... but not what they used to be! And as a buisness they have to do what they have to do to make the most proffit they can. Its just how it is. Im sure the brewers tere wish they could make bigger hoppier beers but its buissness!

And thats why we home brew........ to make the beer we want with the best ingredients and as much hops as we can afford and/or fit in the kettle

 

[Batz]

The drinker is not the primary customer; the shareholder is.

I don't agree with this, if the drinker does not continue to buy the beer the shareholder will be the looser. Therefore I believe the drinker is the primary customer, he may not be drinking brews that we would welcome but he's the dude handing over the cash.

 

[Bribie G]

Not necessarily heaps of hops. For example my current batch of Midnight Train has (23L batch) four and a half kilos of malt, one kilo of rice, one kilo of maize and one kilo of sugar - and a massive 15g of hops (Galena). This makes it true to style.
However what Tony is saying is that some varieties that should be hoppy are made less hoppy by the megas to pander to "public" taste.

The thing that really annoys me is the "premium Pils" brews that have probably only had one noble hop pellet waved over the top of them. For example the appalling Coopers 62.

 

[Tony]

However what Tony is saying is that some varieties that should be hoppy are made less hoppy by the megas to pander to "public" taste.

The thing that really annoys me is the "premium Pils" brews that have probably only had one noble hop pellet waved over the top of them. For example the appalling Coopers 62.

2nd line backs up 1st line.......... and just buy a bottle of JS IPA to full stop this!

100% agree B G man!

 

[brett mccluskey]

2nd line backs up 1st line.......... and just buy a bottle of JS IPA to full stop this!

100% agree B G man!

Gotta agree with both the above gents.With Pils's i think one of the issues is that the mega's just aren't prepared to give a beer a reasonable lagering time .ie:6/8 weeks.It's more economical with less time and more profitable,simple.If any of you Welshies remember the original Hahn Premium Lager ,you'll know what i mean 'm talking 20 years ago or so. Before JS and Lion Nathan ,Chuck Hahn's original lager was in a 355 ml longneck and was the maltiest lager i've ever had the absolute pleasure of drinking. :icon_drool2: Nothing like the dumbed down beer it is nowdays If they ever re-invent that beer ,they'll corner the market,no probs :beer:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Had a couple of JSGA on tap tonight at the Mecca Bah - I don't remember it being that boring. But it was.

Seriously - vague hop aroma at the end, adequate malt, but nothing that says wow! Definately dumbed down, or I got less dumb.

I have to write a caveat with this - I have changed tastes a great deal since I last had one - my own AG brews are at the stage where the hops go in nice and strong, and I look for a beer that is actually (not theoretically) balanced. If malty, I want some multidimensionality and not overly bittered (which is just a boring way to "balance" the beer) - I want the malt character to shine through on its own. If hoppy, I want hop flavour, not vague aroma.

It's probably just me....

 

[raven19]

Going to a bigger brewery with taller fermentors (for example) certainly changes fermentation profile somewhat given the exact same grain bill.

Commercial savings as posts above are more likely the culprits though imo.

 

[petesbrew]

Commercial beer is like Pop Music: to appease the shareholder you aim at the widest possible target. VB is the Justin Bieber of beer.

I can see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't really repeat that in person to a VB drinker if you don't want to get punched.
Maybe use a different "artist" for VB. Nickelback comes to mind.
I'd liken Bieber to low carb/blonde/dry beers... or tart fuel.

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

I guess the general drinker isn't looking for a beer with alot going on and the big breweries aren't in it for the craft are they. As previously mentioned it's a business.

What worries me is the vice like grip brands like corona are gaining. The big boys are well and truly aware that the less hopped and malty the beer the more money they will make.

God bless the micro

 

[mje1980]

The accountants get control and its all over!

 

[mwd]

I guess the general drinker isn't looking for a beer with alot going on and the big breweries aren't in it for the craft are they. As previously mentioned it's a business.

What worries me is the vice like grip brands like corona are gaining. The big boys are well and truly aware that the less hopped and malty the beer the more money they will make.

God bless the micro

No accounting for taste and it seems the great majority of people don't want any in their beers.

Be interesting to see what the percentage of Mexican Cerveza that Coopers sell in kits compared to the others in the range.

 

[maxymoo]

interesting points! i suppose i don't really have a particular example in mind of a *change* per se since i'm only just developing enough of a palate to really notice the differences between beers. so it sounds like the issue is more one of 'dumbing down' recipes to increase mass appeal rather than one of cost cutting.

with regards to the point of imported grains, does this mostly apply to european lager styles? i suppose the reason i've been thinking about these things is that i just brewed argon's little fellas pale ale and its by far the best beer ive done but also the most expensive, and since im on a bit of a budget im considering leaving out the kilo of weyerman pils and using less/higher AA hops... and was wondering if some of the bigger brewers have had similar thoughts...

 

[winkle]

No accounting for taste and it seems the great majority of people don't want any in their beers.

Be interesting to see what the percentage of Mexican Cerveza that Coopers sell in kits compared to the others in the range.

All the K&K boys I know love that stuff.

 

[stephenkentucky]

following this thread and deducing that big equals crap beer....and small equals beer heaven...guys our beer must be astronomically great after all we would probably be the smallest commercial brewery in Australia. we are so small that we brew the beer and head on different days!

Stephen
Dobson's Brewery