Hot break material off tastes. Should I whirlpool?

[illywhacker]

Hey all,

I've been brewing AG for a while with pretty good results. However, all my beers have a slight off taste which I've been trying to determine the cause of for ages.

The taste in question is hard to describe, but it's a slight puckering, dry, tanninic taste, that seems to get stronger as the beer ages. My beers lack the brilliant clarity of my favourite craft beers. Varies from brew to brew. Doesn't ruin the beer but it's there.

After a bit more reading it occurs to me it may be due to hot break material in the fermentor.

My post-flameout process is as follows.
- Flameout
- Pour wort from stock pot into fermentor through fine metal sieve. Sieve captures hop material okay, but upon reflection, not sure how much hop break gets through. Certainly some sticks to the sides of the kettle.
- Ice bath chill
- Aerate
- Pitch hydrated S-05
- Ferment at 20 deg
- Dry hop
- Usually about 3-4 weeks in primary
- Cold crash
- Bottle

I've never bothered with the whole whirlpool process as my pot doesn't have a tap, I would have to syphon and, as I'd be whirlpooling hot wort, would have change my hop addition timings. Yeah?

Maybe I've underestimated the amount of hot break getting in and its effects. Are the tastes I describe consistent with hot break? Something else?

Thanks much for any advice/discussion in advance.

 

[Matplat]

Did you mix up steps 2 and 3?

You should be chilling before transferring to the FV. If you haven't mixed up steps 2 and 3 that is your problem as you are oxidising the wort by transferring hot.

 

[illywhacker]

Oh right. No, I chill in the fermenter.

I was of the understanding that oxidization was only an issue post-ferment. After all we're meant to aerate before pitching. Or aeration only okay with chilled? Is oxidization a risk with hot wort? Doesn't a rolling boil in the kettle aerate?

 

[manticle]

Best to aerate when the wort is chilled and before it ferments. Avoid splashing heaps when wort is hot.

But yes - whirlpool, kettle fining, settling time and leaving behind break material is a good idea. If chilling, you have the opportunity to leave behind cold break too which you can't do if you chill in the fermenter.

 

[benno1973]

HSA is hot-side aeration, best to aerate the wort when it is chilled below 30C. Your choice as to whether you believe it exists or not, but the claims are that it will affect the shelf life of your beer (i.e. deleterious changes will occur as the beer ages), and certainly pouring your wort through a fine sieve will aerate it. Maybe find a different way to rack your beer into the fermenter if you're planning on chilling in the fermenter? Or chill in the kettle, and then syphon after the hot break has settled.

 

[Dan Pratt]

As written above, change that process of transferring hot to the FV. Chill in the pot, then pour it into the FV which will aerate the wort prior to pitching.

Another thing I noticed was 3-4wks in primary, that is a long time?

I don't know of any literature that would suggest that should not be done but if all things are done right, including the pitching of enough healthy viable yeast that ferments at a controlled temp, fermentation should be complete within 4-5days. If you dry hop that would take another 3-5days, cold crash for 36hrs and package.

 

[motman]

I got lots of astringency recently after trying out my new mill and grinding my poor barley in to flour. I am using brew I a bag but still noticed the difference. May be worth checking.

I also noticed that the astringency dropped with the cloudiness (I added gelatin but not too cold, so it took a week or three to drop clear). May be worth trying fining.

Finally, I have read that high mash ph can cause astringency. I haven't actually had that issue but food for thought.

Good luck!

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Have you compared your AG brews to any other AG brewed beer? Off the shelf and fresh?
When I first AG brewed I noticed a difference to say a nutty grain flavor compared to an extract can brew.
I think its more a green beer thing. Beer needs aging I have found. (conditioning thang)
After proper aging you cant tell the difference of AG versus an extract versus an off the shelf something crafty other than they are all different and change with age.
$0.02

 

[Rocker1986]

If astrigency is caused by tannins (?), and Polyclar removes tannins, might be worth looking into using that? I tried gelatine a couple of times but I didn't like the way it caused the yeast sediment in the bottles to become fluffy and easily disturbed. Also found clarity was inconsistent from bottle to bottle. No such problems with Polyclar.

 

[Dazzbrew]

Doesn't a rolling boil in the kettle aerate?

no, boiling drives the oxygen out. Thats why you need to add oxygen before pitching yeast.

best to chill in the kettle before transferring to the fv that way you can leave more crap behind.

 

[illywhacker]

HSA is hot-side aeration, best to aerate the wort when it is chilled below 30C. Your choice as to whether you believe it exists or not, but the claims are that it will affect the shelf life of your beer (i.e. deleterious changes will occur as the beer ages), and certainly pouring your wort through a fine sieve will aerate it. Maybe find a different way to rack your beer into the fermenter if you're planning on chilling in the fermenter? Or chill in the kettle, and then syphon after the hot break has settled.

Thanks for the link! Never heard of hot-side aeration. Certainly my issue is that my beer doesn't keep well, so it may be the cause of what I describe.

So everyone seems to agree, I should change my process;
- Chill in kettle till at least <30
- Whirlpool
- Let rest for 10mins or so
- Syphon to FV, aerating on the way.
- Get down to 20 deg and pitch.

My issue is getting the kettle into the sink where I ice bath is a bit tricky. I might have to explore a plate chiller.

@ Rocker. I'm kind of averse to using additives but I'll check it out. I've started cold crashing before bottling which I have found helps with removing proteins and improving clarity.

@ motman. Yeah I thought it might be mash ph but I measured it and it was 5.7 ish which isn't too bad. I don't oversparge and am gentle with the grains. I think removing hot break material might be the thing.

Thanks for the input guys!

 

[Dan Pratt]

Good luck with the changes. Just swap around 1 & 2 and dont worry about 3.

Move boil kettle to chilling bath
Whirlpool
Leave for time required to chill beer
Transfer to FV

 

[Rocker1986]

@ Rocker. I'm kind of averse to using additives but I'll check it out. I've started cold crashing before bottling which I have found helps with removing proteins and improving clarity.

That was more directed towards Motman with his issues of astringency. Just a bit of thinking out loud really.

However, Polyclar isn't classed as an additive, as it doesn't end up in the finished beer. It drops out and settles into the trub, dragging the tannins with it. I've been cold crashing for a long time and noticed no real improvement in clarity for whatever reasons. Certainly less yeast sediment though.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Transferring to the fermentor hot shouldn't be a problem as long as you minimise any splashing and opportunity for aeration. No chill requires the wort to be transfered to a vessel to so see no reason this should cause you problems. However if there is splashing or aerating before the wort gets down to 30C then yeah hot side aeration may be the problem. I have often heard that oxidation brings a wet cardboard taste to the beer- does that sound familiar?

What temp do you mash out at? If above 80C then that may explain the tannin taste.

But back to your original question- yes I think whirlpooling would have benefits. I doubt the strainer would remove much of the hot break. Whether this is the cause of your issues or not, I'm not sure but it wouldn't hurt to put it into your routine. In fact the straining may be what is creating aeration of your wort.

 

[yankinoz]

I'm not convinced that hot break has anything to do with the astringency you describe. It's the lesser of several possibilities, especially if you sparge. Fine grinds increase astringency from sparging a little. Sparging too hot, too long and especially at too high a pH increase it a lot. Did you sparge, and how?

The crud on the side of the fermenter after the krausen drops needs to stay there.

Dry hopping adds astringency. How much depends on how much you use and how long it stays there. Some brewers use mass quantities and leave it there a week, and say the beer is fine, but if you are using a lot, try dry hopping only a day or two.

 

[illywhacker]

I'm not convinced that hot break has anything to do with the astringency you describe. It's the lesser of several possibilities, especially if you sparge. Fine grinds increase astringency from sparging a little. Sparging too hot, too long and especially at too high a pH increase it a lot. Did you sparge, and how?

The crud on the side of the fermenter after the krausen drops needs to stay there.

Dry hopping adds astringency. How much depends on how much you use and how long it stays there. Some brewers use mass quantities and leave it there a week, and say the beer is fine, but if you are using a lot, try dry hopping only a day or two.

Yeah, I batch sparge. Mash half the water at the desired temp, usually 67, then add second half of water to mash out at 75. I don't fly sparge or anything.
I thought it may have been mash pH. Measured it at around 5.7, which seems okay. I've had the taste on beers not dry-hopped, so don't think it's this.

Tell you the truth, I'm not all that confident describing the off-taste I experience. Feels a slight lingering puckery after-taste on the pallate. It definitely gets stronger with age, though. Often don't detect it on greener beer. This makes me think it may be an oxidisation thing, or this hot-side aeration. I know the typical description of this is wet-cardboard, but to tell you the truth, I'm not sure I have the imagination to figure how that might taste in a brew.

Anyone have another way of describing the taste of slightly oxidized beer, or beer suffering from hot-side aeration?

 

[manticle]

Astringency can be associated with excess hot break as far as I am aware. Reduce it and see if your beer improves anyway.

Flavours resulting from oxidation take different forms - cardboard is only one and relates to a specific compound (trans-2-nonenal). Some are nicer, level and beer style dependent.

 

[illywhacker]

Okay well I tried the whirlpool. Didn't go well. It was an IPA so there was a crapload of hop material. Didn't like the idea of the wort just sitting there while it settled out so I started syphoning, but with the result that a tonne of the hop material got sucked up. And eff me did the syphon take a long time. Seriosly doubt it's worth it.

At least my new immersion chiller was a victory. In future I may just chill and pour into FV through sieve. At least I won't have the hot side aeration concern...

 

[manticle]

Let it settle for 10-20 mins, then whirlpool, then chill. Add 0 minute hops to whirlpol. While it chills, it should settle in a cone if your technique is right (stiff, upright spoon, create an actual vortex in centre). Should be plenty hot enough to prevent contamination. Chuck a lid on while it settles to prevent falling dust, etc.

 

[illywhacker]

Doesn't that mean all the hops' oils are still extracting though? Do you then shift your flavour hops back 10-20 mins? And won't the aroma hops end up bittering? I like the idea of quickly locking in the hop profile.