Hop Utilisation

[Benniee]

Evening brewers,

Got a question for you that relates to my most recent run of beers (around 9). Different styles, different yeasts, but all one thing in common. Bitterness is way down on my expected values (I use Beersmith with the Tinseth formula).

Now, the one thing in common is the hops were bought from one supplier - which I won't name here as this is not a bad-mouthing exercise. I've been using the AA% figures they gave me when I purchased the hops, however they didn't provide a date that the AA analysis was carried out. The hops are in pellet form, stored in re-sealable foil bags in my freezer.

I never really had a problem with hop utilisation and getting close to my expected bitterness before (at least to my palate anyway), so I don't believe the problem to be process related.

But I am open to suggestions about what I may be doing in my brewing that would hinder the hop utilisation.

I do full volume boils, and boil fairly vigorously - not just a simmer. Over the range of beers I'm talking about here the mash/boil/beer pH has probably been slightly high. I've noticed the malt profile of a couple of my beers to be slightly dull. I don't believe the pH to be way off the mark because I haven't been getting any harsh flavors in the finished beer, just some chill haze issues.

I have asked the question of the supplier about the AA% analysis data - but in the meantime should I be looking closer to home?

Benniee

 

[Acasta]

Good question.

 

[Silo Ted]

Are your expected values based on success with other hop supplies in your brews prior to your last 9 brews?

It could be that you are a hop addict and need a big punch of bitterness and flavor. What are some of your favourite hoppy bottleshop beers?

Or the hops could be old. I used a few old hops a while ago, and it does show in the end product. So much so that I threw a lot of 1 year old hops out.

 

[Cocko]

What chilling method do you use?

 

[DUANNE]

are you saying that nothing has changed in the last nine brews except the hops and malt have both changed in profile? im just throwing a wag out here but has your water profile changed at all? id be lookingat that or it could just be a lupulin threshold shift, something homebrewers regularly suffer from.

 

[Benniee]

The beers I've been brewing range from lightly hopped German lagers through to an ESB and a German Pils. On some of the lightly hopped beers it is harder to detect, which makes sense. But on some of the beers at the other end of the scale like the German Pils and the ESB the beers are very lacking and not true to style at all.

I have been thinking that my water may have shifted - and that would account for my slightly higher pH, but would that slight shift in pH account for such an apparent reduction in hop utilisation?

This is the first time I have used hops from this supplier, and I've been using these hops over all of the beers in question. I have used hops from other suppliers without any noticable problems in the past, but there has been a break/gap in my brewing schedule between then and now.

As for shifts in my lupulin threshold, probably not. I'm not sitting in front of a calculated 100IBU IIPA and thinking it may be more like 70IBU. Using the ESB as an example - Beersmith calculated the bitterness out to 33IBU, and tasting it I'd put it closed to around the 15-20 mark - very lacking in all aspects of the hopping (bitterness/flavor/aroma).

I'm heading towards old/aged hops - but I didn't want to jump to any colclusions without some thought first. I have seen some hop utilisation graphs for a range of pH (in one of my book by George Fix I think), but it was talking about heading too acidic in the boil which would reduce the hop utilisation.

Any brewers in the Newcastle area want to take some of the hops and brew a beer with them to see how they go?

Benniee

 

[Screwtop]

Evening brewers,

Got a question for you that relates to my most recent run of beers (around 9). Different styles, different yeasts, but all one thing in common. Bitterness is way down on my expected values (I use Beersmith with the Tinseth formula).

Now, the one thing in common is the hops were bought from one supplier - which I won't name here as this is not a bad-mouthing exercise. I've been using the AA% figures they gave me when I purchased the hops, however they didn't provide a date that the AA analysis was carried out. The hops are in pellet form, stored in re-sealable foil bags in my freezer.

I never really had a problem with hop utilisation and getting close to my expected bitterness before (at least to my palate anyway), so I don't believe the problem to be process related.

But I am open to suggestions about what I may be doing in my brewing that would hinder the hop utilisation.

I do full volume boils, and boil fairly vigorously - not just a simmer. Over the range of beers I'm talking about here the mash/boil/beer pH has probably been slightly high. I've noticed the malt profile of a couple of my beers to be slightly dull. I don't believe the pH to be way off the mark because I haven't been getting any harsh flavors in the finished beer, just some chill haze issues.

I have asked the question of the supplier about the AA% analysis data - but in the meantime should I be looking closer to home?

Benniee

Tell us the OG and FG, mash temp and IBU for these recipes. Do you treat your water? Ever heard of the Sweetness/Bitterness Value Formula? I sometimes use very old hops without problems, they are stored in the freezer so when age adjusting the age is reduced by half. Ie: 2006 crop age = 24 months.

Screwy

 

[Benniee]

Tell us the OG and FG, mash temp and IBU for these recipes. Do you treat your water? Ever heard of the Sweetness/Bitterness Value Formula? I sometimes use very old hops without problems, they are stored in the freezer so when age adjusting the age is reduced by half. Ie: 2006 crop age = 24 months.

Ok - as I've mentioned the ESB before I'll keep using it as an example.

OG - 1.050
FG - 1.016
Calculated IBU - 33

IBU/SG - 0.65 (should be fairly bitter at this ratio I believe).

Hopping schedule was
95g EKG 3.8% @ 60 min
10g EKG 3.8% @ 10 min
(Final volume 28L)

The 3.8% is the figure I've been provided by the supplier, but at present I don't know when the AA analysis was performed so I can't really apply any aging adjustments (although I'm thinking I will need to).

Benniee

 

[seemax]

Chilling method?

 

[Benniee]

Chilling method?

Immersion chiller - gets from boiling down to approx 25 degrees in around 20 minutes.

 

[michael_or]

Are you able to buy some fresh hops from another source and brew the recipe again. Might be an easy way to narrow it down.

 

[Benniee]

Are you able to buy some fresh hops from another source and brew the recipe again. Might be an easy way to narrow it down.

Yeah - That's my next plan of action.

I've had some emails with the supplier today and they are being extremely helpful. Rather than just dismiss my concerns they are investigating things at their end.

I did have a brew day lined up for tomorrow, so I may postpone it for a week or perhaps brew it with double the quantity of hops I had originally planned.

Thanks for the input so far everyone.

Benniee

 

[lock]

Hopping schedule was
95g EKG 3.8% @ 60 min
10g EKG 3.8% @ 10 min

I'm sure you've thought of this but it's always worth asking the dumb questions, are you sure your hopping those amounts? Have you checked your scales? Changed scales?

 

[Benniee]

I'm sure you've thought of this but it's always worth asking the dumb questions, are you sure your hopping those amounts? Have you checked your scales? Changed scales?

Haven't changed scales - and I also use them to measure my grain and I get consistent efficiency figures. I'd say they are good for +/- 2g. I did check them against a friends scales a little while back and the reading between the two scales was within 1g.

If I fudge the AA% of the hops down until I get close to what I percieve the IBUs to be, it works out to be around 12 months of aging at fridge temps. This may well be the case, but as I mentioned earlier I don't have any age data to work off - hopefully by this afternoon I may have some more info.

I think for the next beer I brew I will use my guestimated reduced AA% figures and see if I can get to where I want to be. Only problem is it will be a fair amount of hops, and without a kettle screen this may result in some getting transferred out of the kettle.

In order to "fix" the beers I currently have in kegs - I was thinking of making up a bit of a hop tea, straining and then adding into the keg. Obviously whatever volume I add will dilute the finished beer somewhat, but for a couple of the styles I think it will be worth it to improve the hop profile of the beer. Anyone had any success doing this?

Benniee

 

[katzke]

We were the unlucky recipients of 2.2 Kg (a pound) of Magnum hops at our Christmas party last year. Thought they would be great for IPAs and have been proven wrong. I have tried lowering the value in my program and even increased the amount of them in the last beer. They are just not up to the job and that may be why they were given away. I am not sure if they were mislabeled or are just bad hops.

Given what you say that you changed suppliers and your hop bitterness has dropped the only way to find out is change back to the supplier you liked and see if the bitterness goes up.

Your water may have changed but I think the kind of change you are seeing is more likely from the hop. Given that I do not read about many beers that are hopped to the 100 IBU range it could be that others are not seeing as big of change from the same hops. 30% of 100 is much more detectable to the tounge then 30% of 50.

 

[Benniee]

We were the unlucky recipients of 2.2 Kg (a pound) of Magnum hops at our Christmas party last year. Thought they would be great for IPAs and have been proven wrong. I have tried lowering the value in my program and even increased the amount of them in the last beer. They are just not up to the job and that may be why they were given away. I am not sure if they were mislabeled or are just bad hops.

Given what you say that you changed suppliers and your hop bitterness has dropped the only way to find out is change back to the supplier you liked and see if the bitterness goes up.

Your water may have changed but I think the kind of change you are seeing is more likely from the hop. Given that I do not read about many beers that are hopped to the 100 IBU range it could be that others are not seeing as big of change from the same hops. 30% of 100 is much more detectable to the tounge then 30% of 50.

I'd have to say that if someone offered me a pound of Magnum I' would have been thinking the same as you.

If my water has changed then I feel that it is only a slight change. Our local water is very soft, and pretty low in mineral content.

While I deliberately haven't named the supplier - I will state that it's not a LHBS with a shopfront that I could go to and talk it over with someone. It's a specialised hop dealer.

As a bit of a test I had some bottles of the ESB so I put one in the fridge tonight and sampled it against the beer in the keg. Bitterness of the beer from the bottle seemed firmer, and while still below my target figures it was certainly higher than the beer from the keg. :blink: Now I don't really know which way to attack this. In most of the other beers I've only had enough to fill a keg - but for the ESB I had enough for a keg and some bottles. Temperature of both beers was similar and carbonation was light.

So what next? More time - just leave things for a few weeks and evaluate again? I can't imagine there would be anything in the keg that reduces the bitterness, or the perception of bitterness. I don't use any finings post fermentation - just whirlfloc in the kettle.

I'm probably over-thinking this - just like most of my brewing

Benniee

 

[dr K]

3.8% is rather low for EKG, but AA does vary a lot, some of the figures I have seen for 2009 harvest put EKG at 6.5% and the more expensive Styrian G at a mere 3.9%, mastering hop additions is a very difficult task (unless you make hyped up super hoppy beers, even then it can be difficult).

K

 

[Benniee]

3.8% is rather low for EKG, but AA does vary a lot, some of the figures I have seen for 2009 harvest put EKG at 6.5% and the more expensive Styrian G at a mere 3.9%, mastering hop additions is a very difficult task (unless you make hyped up super hoppy beers, even then it can be difficult).

I thought 3.8% was an odd AA number too - and a couple of other brewers have raised it with me - wondering how I ended up with them because the last few harvests don't line up with that number - unless the supplier is taking into account some AA reduction over time. I usually see a "typical" figure of 5% in recipes.

If I can get close the mark on bitterness, and get the flavor/aroma I'm after then I'm happy. It just seems I haven't ticked any of the boxes of late.

Still - it's a good excuse to do some more brewing. Last night I shared some beer with some friends and most of them were quite happy to consume the produce . I guess I can just call my German Pils a Munich Helles and everything will be ok.

Benniee

 

[drsmurto]

I have used older hops with success and dont make any change to the AA.

Its my understanding that the loss of AA reported is for hops sitting on a bench exposed to the air at room temperature, not stored in a freezer and in my case, vac sealed.

That said, i haven't used hops more than 3 years old.

As for the balance of your ESB, to me 0.65 is right at the low end of the scale.

The mash temp will have a big effect on the body so what temp did you mash at?

The grist will also have an effect - did you use any sugar, how much crystal as a %?

 

[Benniee]

I have used older hops with success and dont make any change to the AA.

Its my understanding that the loss of AA reported is for hops sitting on a bench exposed to the air at room temperature, not stored in a freezer and in my case, vac sealed.

That said, i haven't used hops more than 3 years old.

As for the balance of your ESB, to me 0.65 is right at the low end of the scale.

The mash temp will have a big effect on the body so what temp did you mash at?

The grist will also have an effect - did you use any sugar, how much crystal as a %?

Mash temp was 68
No adjuncts used.
Grist was
88% pale malt
4% munich malt
5% light crystal
3% dark crystal

I wasn't really trying to fault find this particular recipe - but more raise the point that all my brews in my current brewing cycle have been down on bitterness (well that is my perception anyway). I was trying to determine if there was anything I may be doing that would impact on the hop utilisation. And going from your reply you seem to have used older hops with a problem.

Thanks,
Benniee