Hilary or Donald

[Liam_snorkel]

I'm a bit ignorant - what conflict could arise between India and the US?

not sure Keating is late to the party, he's been banging on about joining ASEAN for years

 

[Feldon]

I said conflict between India and China.

ASEAN is an economic forum. Keating is now saying we should leave or drastically renegotiate the ANZUS (military) alliance.

EDIT: here's a link to an essay by Malcom Fraser published in The National Interest (a US geopolitical journal) just before he died: http://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-australias-dangerous-ally-11858

 

[Liam_snorkel]

I really need to work on my reading comprehension. Cheers Feldon

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Don't forget the sleeping giant in India.

If conflict erupts between India, backed by the US, and China, were does Australia fit in?

Do we refuse to join America's next 'Coalition of the Willing' and see China stop buying our minerals etc,(and say goodbye to your Super) or do we try and step out of the conflict, which the US will read as open support for China and punish us every way they can (including economic warfare and ramping up military support for Indonesia).

Hugh White's been raising alarm over our head-in-the-sand approach to the US alliance and its implications for years. As did Malcolm Fraser just before his death recently. And now Keating is on to it too (but late to the party).

Its time for Australia to grow up and stand on its own two feet. The Trump presidency presents a rare opportunity to do this. The US in peace time will always covert good relations with Australia simply because of our militarily strategic geographic location on the globe. Its more important for them to get along with Australia than it is for Australia to get along with the US. Just that no PM has yet had the balls to lay the cards on the table.

Rock and a hard place.

 

[Dave70]

Don't forget the sleeping giant in India.

If conflict erupts between India, backed by the US, and China, were does Australia fit in?

Do we refuse to join America's next 'Coalition of the Willing' and see China stop buying our minerals etc,(and say goodbye to your Super) or do we try and step out of the conflict, which the US will read as open support for China and punish us every way they can (including economic warfare and ramping up military support for Indonesia).

Hugh White's been raising alarm over our head-in-the-sand approach to the US alliance and its implications for years. As did Malcolm Fraser just before his death recently. And now Keating is on to it too (but late to the party).

Its time for Australia to grow up and stand on its own two feet. The Trump presidency presents a rare opportunity to do this. The US in peace time will always covert good relations with Australia simply because of our militarily strategic geographic location on the globe. Its more important for them to get along with Australia than it is for Australia to get along with the US. Just that no PM has yet had the balls to lay the cards on the table.

Beside the fact that a serious punch up with hair pulling and biting between Pakistan and India is far more likely than China, why would the US financially support the military in a country of 207 million Sunni muslims? Couldn't that be read as open support for isis? If they wanted to **** with us a little, there are far less risky strategies.
Welfare? Go for it. Anything to prevent another Saudi funded Wahhabist school is a win in my book.
Maby Trump could build another one of his universities, sorry "Entrepreneur Initiative". With a casino next door.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Ultimately Australia will go with Democracy (and the US).

 

[Feldon]

Beside the fact that a serious punch up with hair pulling and biting between Pakistan and India is far more likely than China, why would the US financially support the military in a country of 207 million Sunni muslims? Couldn't that be read as open support for isis? If they wanted to **** with us a little, there are far less risky strategies.
Welfare? Go for it. Anything to prevent another Saudi funded Wahhabist school is a win in my book.
Maby Trump could build another one of his universities, sorry "Entrepreneur Initiative". With a casino next door.

Pakistan's major economic and military ally is China.

Any serious escalation of the current tensions between India and Pakistan will inevitably bring China and India into conflict, quite possibly nuclear conflict. There are several other disputed territory scenarios that could also bring about Indo-Sino conflict eg. Tibet.

My worry is that Trump has promised to re-birth American manufacturing to provide jobs for his rust-belt supporters. The easiest (only?) way to achieve this is if China's is taken out, with its manufacturing infrastructure (power, water, factories etc) is destroyed. Then American factories have no Chinese competition and can rise up again. How do you destroy China's manufacturing base? Forment an Indo-Sino (nuclear) war.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

.... possibly nuclear conflict.

The easiest (only?) way to achieve this is if China's is taken out, with its manufacturing infrastructure (power, water, factories etc) is destroyed. ....

How do you destroy China's manufacturing base? Forment an Indo-Sino (nuclear) war.....

No.

Let's just go with some Tariffs shall we?

 

[Dave70]

 

[tavas]

Yes, its all a bit dramatic,but if you want to go there, Chinas got more regular army than Russia and the US combined, and silos chock full of nukes. Plus the ISP's are state censored owned, so nobody knows nuffin.
But I'm not worried. What could possibly go wrong with a Trump / Putin alliance?
But the real problem is China.
China
China.
China.

 

[spog]

Don't forget the sleeping giant in India.

If conflict erupts between India, backed by the US, and China, were does Australia fit in?

Do we refuse to join America's next 'Coalition of the Willing' and see China stop buying our minerals etc,(and say goodbye to your Super) or do we try and step out of the conflict, which the US will read as open support for China and punish us every way they can (including economic warfare and ramping up military support for Indonesia).

Hugh White's been raising alarm over our head-in-the-sand approach to the US alliance and its implications for years. As did Malcolm Fraser just before his death recently. And now Keating is on to it too (but late to the party).

Its time for Australia to grow up and stand on its own two feet. The Trump presidency presents a rare opportunity to do this. The US in peace time will always covet good relations with Australia simply because of our militarily strategic geographic location on the globe. Its more important for them to get along with Australia than it is for Australia to get along with the US. Just that no PM has yet had the balls to lay the cards on the table.

Hmmm, Marines stationed in the N T ?....gotta wonder.

 

[Dave70]

Aaaaaaaand of course, the predictable far left / liberal pendulum swing. Just look at their sad democracy hating faces
Guess its to late to issue a trigger warning.

Cheer up sad sacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsMEYjr9o1M

 

[Mardoo]

That one guy on the right is smiling...

 

[Jens-Kristian]

US isn't Europe level fucked though...

Not saying everything about the US is a grand grail of society but look at what pandering to the left has done to France, Denmark, Sweden... Record numbers of French are now fleeing France to live in the US.

That's just so far off the mark.

I'm from Denmark and have both Swedish and German friends. Are there some little issues with it all? Sure. The main issues however, lie with the reporting of it, stirring up a storm over things which most people simply do not feel any impact from ever.

The way this whole 'Europe has gone to shit' argument is playing out, you'd think there was a war on and that people are being killed and stabbed all over the place. The reality is, that if you're walking around in any European city, you'll experience the same problems as you will when doing the same here. Walking through a smaller town there, you'll experience the same as in a smaller town here.

'Things' have not gone to shit. For basically everyone in Europe, there's no noticeable difference.

 

[MHB]

Easier to sell fear than hope, hate than tolerance, us V them.
How's it go -The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
Mark

 

[Black Devil Dog]

How many of these protesters got off their arses, sorry, off their asses, or to be more precise, off their sorry asses and voted?

Protest at the ballot box.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The reality is, that if you're walking around in any European city, you'll experience the same problems as you will when doing the same here. Walking through a smaller town there, you'll experience the same as in a smaller town here.

Like trying to find a decent Pub that has decent beer ?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The way this whole 'Europe has gone to shit' argument is playing out, you'd think there was a war on and that people are being killed and stabbed all over the place.

'Things' have not gone to shit. For basically everyone in Europe, there's no noticeable difference.

Thats not what the Daily Telegraph tells me...I trust them. They would never just make shit up

 

[Jens-Kristian]

How many of these protesters got off their arses, sorry, off their asses, or to be more precise, off their sorry asses and voted?

Protest at the ballot box.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that they didn't vote. I know that a lot of people didn't, but people who demonstrate are, usually, at least politically engaged.

There's nothing wrong with protesting. I think some of the things that people have been asking for it somewhat laughable, but to say that one should only be politically engaged and take part in the democratic process at election time, is silly.

It is also somewhat galling to hear Trump supporters say that the demonstrators should 'suck it up' when, for the past eight years they have been doing nothing of the kind themselves.

Trump will be president. I dislike it but I acknowledge that he won the election as per the democratic system as it exists in the US. But to acknowledge and accept the democratic process, does not mean that one has to like it or be quiet about it. It's the same as when people suggest that because a government was elected, it 'has a mandate to do this or that'; it does not have that mandate unless it can carry it through. If the opposition has enough seats in parliament to block it, then the opposition has a mandate to effect that blockage.

As citizens, we're allowed to protest. We are allowed to make our voices heard and our opinions known. That's not 'sour grapes' or 'childish behaviour' - that is to take seriously ones responsibility as a citizen.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I cant help but think Donald didn't expect to win this. The bluff is called now haha.
The problem with Trump is he's like a rolling dice. He defied all predictions and analysis as to win. Can he do the same about being a great president? Or the worst President?
Lay your bets.