High Temperature Brews

[Nick JD]

Sure I do. I just happen to use more than the palest malt I can lay my hands on and hop additions so small Fosters would call me a tight-arse. Why do you ask? You're a fool. I click "View this post" no more!

Wow - more education. Fosters has started adding hops?

 

[pyrobrewer]

You could also point out that prominent esters being more to style for ales is not the defining character of ales - but you wouldn't bother really because you couldn't even kick sense in to the fool's head.

Sadly, I believe you may be correct
I have in fact ceased trying to help Nick JD
The information is for the benifit of others following the thread -a sort of harm minimisation.

 

[Nick JD]

I have in fact ceased trying to help Nick JD

In the 45 whole posts you've made so far, about 30 of them have been borderline trolling. Your statement above does your attitude credit. The OP needs help, not me.

I have a great way you can help me ... it's called "The Ignore List" - you're on it! My first.

 

[pyrobrewer]

In the 45 whole posts you've made so far, about 30 of them have been borderline trolling. Your statement above does your attitude credit. The OP needs help, not me.

I have a great way you can help me ... it's called "The Ignore List" - you're on it! My first.

Pity you really could learn somthing

 

[Nick JD]

You've replied, but all I can see is:

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: pyrobrewer.

 

[tomtom]

Gee, Im sorry I asked, didnt mean to cause a blue, so anything in the low to mid twenties is ok yeh??

 

[pyrobrewer]

Gee, Im sorry I asked, didnt mean to cause a blue, so anything in the low to mid twenties is ok yeh??

The temperature you ferment at depends on the style of beer you are brewing.
For instance
Ale fermentation (using and ale yeast) average range 18-22c
Lagers average 10-12c (using a lager yeast) some funky belgians might go to 25 or even higher. Yeast themselves prefer a higher temperature but the beer quality suffers

The easiest way to make the whole weather thing go away is to ferment in a temp controlled fridge.

Also try a wet towell wrapped around the fermenter keep it wet and in a breeze (fan?) works best on low humidity days. You may want some sanitiser in the water as the towel can go mouldy.

From White labs-

The optimum temperature for yeast growth is 32 c. Yeast cell death occurs above 38 c. Why then, dont we ferment our beers then at 32 C, decreasing the time that it takes to make beer? Why do we make yeast work slower? Because what is best for yeast, is not best for beer. As they grow and multiply, yeast produces many compounds, the most noticeable of which are esters. As the temperature fermentation rises, more yeast growth occurs, and consequently more esters are produced. At 32 C yeast produce so much acetaldehyde (which tastes like apples) that the beer becomes undrinkable. The optimum ale fermentation temperature has been found to be 20 C (18-22). This temperature strikes the best balance between yeast growth and ester levels for most ale strains. For Hefeweizen-style beers, some brewers like to ferment above 26 C, which increases the level of banana- flavored esters produced by these strains. Most ale strains are unable to ferment or grow at 12 C, which is the most common lager fermentation temperature. This fermentation temperature greatly reduces the ester-forming ability of most lager strains, creating the clean flavour associated with lager beers. Ester levels are kept low, placing the emphasis on malt and hop flavors.

 

[Nick JD]

Gee, Im sorry I asked, didnt mean to cause a blue, so anything in the low to mid twenties is ok yeh??

Don't worry about the fisticuffs, it's difficult to tell experts from assholes sometimes.

What yeast are you using? On the Fermentis range (US05, S04 S23 etc) it says on the back the range you can use it at.

 

[manticle]

Hi Tom tom.

I think Pyrobrewer nailed it - it depends on what you want to brew. You have to balance that with what you can achieve.

There are a few ales where products from higher temps like esters are desirable. Saisons are one of those. Some belgian styles may also benefit from higher fermentation (usually in the latter stages of fermentation).

If you want a cleaner tasting beer (appropriate for lagers and some ales) you brew in the lower end of the spectrum. Lagers are brewed especially low (down around 10 degrees). Many ales benefit from cooler fermentation and don't turn out bland. Brew a weizenbier with the right yeast at 17 degrees and you'll get plenty of esters. An altbier may also be brewed cooler and longer and then treated like a lager - heaps of flavour there. Plenty of lagers are malty with a nice lasting hop bitterness.

What bum was trying to get at is that while some flavour (both desirable and undesirable) comes down to esters, you can also use different malt and yeasts and hops to get different flavours. The idea that cool fermentation automatically equals bland I find a bit strange. English bitters do not rely purely on esters for flavour and I reckon they acquit themselves well. Same may be said for an AIPA.

As a general rule 17-22 for ales (depending on the ale and what you want from it)
7-12 for lagers (plus a 2-4 degree conditioning period).
22-26 for some special beers like saisons and some other belgian styles although starting cooler and increasing temp is probably better than starting out at 26.

As I said - it depends a little on what you can do but at least be aware of the various effects. The most important thing is what YOU want from YOUR beer so if you like fruity esters, there's no need to go cooler. If you want to limit those, look at keeping the brew at a lower temp, particularly at the early and most vigorous part of ferment.

 

[Screwtop]

I'm still waiting for your advice on how I can brew an ale cold and add the esters in my ingredients list...

If esters aren't the defining character of ales then I'm the crack on a monkey's bum. An ale without esters is getting very close to being a lager IMO.

Esters no, not from most typical ingredients (but from some ingredients). Brewing Ales or Lagers is all about balance and if brewing to style, then also producing suitable esters according to a style. Some beers can be yeast driven and others malt driven, and some hop driven. Depending upon what is required, esters produced by yeast during fermentation can be undesirable. Aussie lagers are fermented using lager yeast strains fermented warmer than what is considered optimum for the yeast of origin, not much of a problem as the beer is served cold and the esters produced are not all that noticeable at the serving temp. Hybrid beers such as Klsch can be produced using lager yeast at the warmer end of the scale or a clean fermenting ale yeast at the lower end of their temp range, to style. Yes esters produced by ale yeasts are what typically defines an ale, but it is wrong to insinuate that all ales should rely upon esters to be an ale. Big esters can be as over the top if out of balance as an APA might be if hopped to the point of being out of balance. Funky fruity esters such as found in Belgian beers are as much a part of the style as those banana and clove esters produced by wheat yeast strains in Weizens, but out of place in say a Scottish style where esters should be minimum.

This is the sort of info that new brewers need, down off your high horse and explain it for the newbs if you have the knowledge, there is far too much crap info posted in response to newb queries. I would rather they search and find out for themselves by accessing reliable info from brewing resource text, or books but if we keep to providing good accurate info then they just might stay with the hobby long enough to do that.

Screwy

 

[tomtom]

Im only on my second brew and im just using can + body brew + the yeast that comes with the can.
My first brew that I bottled 11 days ago that had the slightly high temperatures is Ok tasting so far and I know it will get better with a bit more time but it has hardly any fizz whatsoever, let alone a head.

 

[MHB]

Tomtom, I'm sorry you feel you have caused trouble, you haven't done anything to apologise for, the question you asked was more than reasonable and hopefully between the BS you will have found some very useful information, just to expand a little further.

Every yeast available will have a working temperature range, through out that range it will produce more or less and different metabolic side issues. In the case of Ale yeast, generally over 25oC these become less desirable (there are exceptions but generally), for lager yeast the upper limit is usually regarded as being about 15oC.
The biggest single step you can take to improve the consistency and quality of the beer you are making is to invest in good temperature control; I mean a fridge with a temperature controller, most guys only spend about $100 or so and every beer you brew will benefit.

Barring that the yeast under the lid of most home brew kits is called 514, I know it cops a bagging around here but it is a remarkably temperature tolerant yeast and is a good choice if your brewing warmer.



Nick JD

The definition of lager as opposed to ale involves the ability of lager to metabolise Melibiose, further a diacetyl rest isn't the same as brewing at 18oC.

MHB

 

[bum]

Tomtom, I'm sorry you feel you have caused trouble, you haven't done anything to apologise for, the question you asked was more than reasonable and hopefully between the BS you will have found some very useful information, just to expand a little further.

+1 Sorry for my part in making you feel like you need to apologise for asking a question. Never apologise for trying to learn and improve.

 

[Nick JD]

Nick JD

The definition of lager as opposed to ale involves the ability of lager to metabolise Melibiose, further a diacetyl rest isn't the same as brewing at 18oC.

MHB

I read that too.

"Strains of S. cerevisiae utilize a limited repertoire of carbon sources for growth (Table
12.1). Differences in the patterns of utilization are strain-specific. Ale strains lack the
ability to utilize the disaccharide, melibiose. Lager strains can grow on melibiose because
they have -D-galactosidase activity, which hydrolyzes it to galactose and glucose
(Barnett, 1981)."

I then read below it and noticed:

"There are other differences between ale and lager strains."

And then I thought, lagers generally don't have diacetyl or esters. And then I thought I'd better just stop posting because this is becoming a geek dick-measuring contest with people who actually think I said lagers are brewed the whole way through at 18C.

Meh.

 

[manticle]

Or people discussing beer fermentation........................

 

[Nick JD]

+1 Sorry for my part in making you feel like you need to apologise for asking a question. Never apologise for trying to learn and improve.

Damn. Powerful, bum.

I apologise too, Tom.

 

[pyrobrewer]

Don't worry about the fisticuffs, it's difficult to tell experts from assholes sometimes.

What yeast are you using? On the Fermentis range (US05, S04 S23 etc) it says on the back the range you can use it at.

I, in no way consider myself an expert.

I believe that the results you get in brewing are about what goes into your brain more than the contents of your fermenter.
I do consider Dr Perter Aldred an expert and feel lucky to have had the opportunity to study at Ballart uni going on 3 years now - you do pick up a few useful tidbits I must say.

One aspect of the study is that it actually makes it very easy to spot the assholes.

Unusualy, I am also the owner of one of the larger homebrew stores in the country and deal with brewing issues on a daily (hourly) basis. Several times a week we produce fresh allgrain brewers worts in our brewhouse.
A major factor holding back some homebrewers is that at some point they stop learning and are convinced they know it all. Step outside your comfort zone, buy a book on brewing that is a little above your point on the learnig curve, you may be surprised at just how many long cherrished ideals you hold are just unsupported, hearsay, hand-me-down, forum perpetuated Crap.
Of course you may also be the best brewer in the world.

 

[Barley Belly]

This is the sort of info that new brewers need, down off your high horse and explain it for the newbs if you have the knowledge, there is far too much crap info posted in response to newb queries. I would rather they search and find out for themselves by accessing reliable info from brewing resource text, or books but if we keep to providing good accurate info then they just might stay with the hobby long enough to do that.

Screwy

+ 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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[Begin rant]


Got the same shit when I started on here. Now I try to block it out (I said try)

If ya wanna have compare dicks, do it by PM, so we don't have to read it (A few of you carry on like primary school kids).
Better still, meet up in person and thrash the f#$%en thing out like real men or get a room and get rid of the sexual tension.

I for one are sick of hearing it. I know I don't have to read it, but what about the poor person trying to filter some relevant information through the childish chest beating.

If ya wanna help someone with their question, then help.

[/End rant}

 

[bum]

At least the rest of us were talking about beer, Captain Irony.

 

[tomtom]

Its all cool, Im learning heaps so far off the site. Its taking me a long time to go through all the topics but Im getting there. Keep the good advice coming, I dont really think much about the scientific part of beer making, I just want a palatable beer that I can drink and serve to my friends. Once I find something that works I will brew it exclusively and probably buy a 2nd fermenter to "play" with.