Help With Recipe Experimenting

[Siborg]

I'm having a bit of a play with beer tools, using some recipes I've read a few times in BYO magazine, and modifying them to suit my equipment and playing around with the ingredients to achieve a similar beer profile. I decided that I wanted to make it a little heavier in alcohol content, but keep the bitterness and colour the same. Here's the beer tools output:

Ralph's Heavy IPA
14-B American IPA

Size: 23.18 L
Efficiency: 68.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 228.0 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.068 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.017 (1.010 - 1.018)
Color: 8.01 (6.0 - 15.0)
Alcohol: 6.74% (5.5% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 59.3 (40.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
2 kg Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
.05 kg Crystal 100
2 kg Dry Extra Light
1.5 kg Liquid Light Extract
50 g Columbus (11.0%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
30 g Ahtanum (8.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
30 g Amarillo (8.5%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 ea White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale



The details of the one I am basing this on is:
OG=1060, FG=1014, IBU=62, ABV=6.0%

Now the recipe didn't call for any crystal to be added. I've just added it because I wanted to darken the colour a little bit without adding too much extra OG/FG. Can anyone suggest a grain that I can add just a little bit to control the colour a bit without changing the flavour or gravity too much? I've found that my FG is at the upper limits of the style guidlines and the SRM was at the lower limits until I added the crystal. I'm new to all this grain stuff so I'm not sure if the crystal was a good choice as it may change the flavour to what its supposed to be like. Then again, I'm modifying a recipe, so it might be ok.

I've found playing around with beer tools has been really beneficial in learning how what affects what when you 'add a little more' or 'take out a bit' of each ingredient. I'll probably be buying this program after the trial runs out.

For anyone that is new to this like me, I'd highly recommend finding a clone recipe, find out what style it is (for the guidelines) and enter it into a program such as beer tools and play with it to suit the equipment you have. You'll find you won't get exactly the same numbers as the recipe quotes, but you can play with ingredient portions and get pretty close.

 

[marksfish]

carafa special used in very small amounts will give you colour without a big flavor change.

 

[DUANNE]

+1. carafa special will do the job or even a dash of chocolate malt. with that recipe i personaly wouldnt add crystal because it will end up pretty sweet any way.to be honest id even use a bit of sugar rather than some of the malt to dry it out a bit.another thought would be if your doing a concentrated boil you will probably pick up some colour that way to.

 

[bum]

I love the colour imparted by Carared in a pale ale.

 

[Tony]

I wouldnt say 50g or crystal in 23 liters will do much for the beer at all. If you use enough to darken the beer, it will mute the hops, if you use a small amount, you might as well not use it at all. If you want to darken the beer up a bit (make it a nice amber colour) use 50g of carafa spec 2. Its awsome stuff!

Now if you read the BJCP guidelines, i do believe it says an AIPA is "All about the hops" Showcase is the word they use i believe. I use more hops in a wheat beer than you have there.

Drop your bittering hops back from 90 min to 45 min and just add a bit more to get your IBU's.
Add a 20 Min addition of 20g of something american
Add a 10 Min addition of 30g of something american
Increase your flame out addition to 50g or more!
Dry hop as you have planned.

Also.... use pilsner malt instead of MO. You want the hops to pop. save the MO for an English Bitter or Porter.

Also as said above, replace half a kg of the malt extract with Dex to dry it out and help those hops POP!

I used Ahtanum a while back in an effort to make something different and was not very impressed with the hop. Get some Centenial and give that a run 50/50 with amarillo for all the additions above.

Im no APA expert but i recon this will give you a fairly good beer as a bast to work on next time.

If anyone has any criticism of my ideas please shoot...... im happy to learn more about these super hoppy beers too

cheers

 

[Mobbee007]

Get some Centenial and give that a run 50/50 with amarillo for all the additions above.

Im no APA expert but i recon this will give you a fairly good beer as a bast to work on next time.

If anyone has any criticism of my ideas please shoot...... im happy to learn more about these super hoppy beers too

cheers

+1 for amarillo
I dry hopped an APA with 25gms next time I brew it will be at least 50gms
I used:
35gms Cascade (6.3%)@ 60 mins
15gms Cascade (6.3%)@ 15 mins
25gms Amarillo (8.5%) @ 5mins
25 gms dry hopped
I also aimed for an ABV of 6.2% & I thought it was bloody nice and very hoppy but not too bitter
hope that helps?

 

[manticle]

A very small amount of roast barley will darken the beer and add no sweetness whatsoever (unmalted grain). In small amounts, its flavour won't be discernible.

Try 50g and see what it does in the software for colour.

 

[Tony]

Ok... not having a go here... but why are people afraid to really add some hops to a beer? Step outside the square and reap the rewards!

I have one on tap that has an equivenent of about 130g in 23 liters. Its hoppy but not over the top. Its a fantastic beer! NZ flowers by the way.

Now....... I have some APA's planned that will use up around the amounts i quoted above, an AIPA should be hoppier. I have planned one using equivelent of 300g of hops in a 23 liter batch. Im talking 240g at flame out in a 40 liter batch...... 520g total in the brew.

Youd be suprised how good they are!

get some hops into ya!

cheers

 

[Siborg]

Hey guys.

Cheers for the tips. I'll have a bit of a play around with the recipe some more.

I'm basically modifying the brewdog Punk IPA clone recipe that was in the Jan-Feb issue of BYO magazine. I've found that I'd rather do 23L and I've just played around with the grains/extracts quantities to bring up similar results to what they have listed.

Tony: The MO is the one that they listed in the recipe. While I am deviated a little from whats listed, I want to try and keep it roughly similar, although I will try the pils grain in the software and see what I get. Interesting what you have said about the hops. More hops in less boil time? Does anyone else have anything to add to this re: extended boils vs. more hops?

 

[manticle]

Ok... not having a go here... but why are people afraid to really add some hops to a beer? Step outside the square and reap the rewards!

I have one on tap that has an equivenent of about 130g in 23 liters. Its hoppy but not over the top. Its a fantastic beer! NZ flowers by the way.

Now....... I have some APA's planned that will use up around the amounts i quoted above, an AIPA should be hoppier. I have planned one using equivelent of 300g of hops in a 23 liter batch. Im talking 240g at flame out in a 40 liter batch...... 520g total in the brew.

Youd be suprised how good they are!

get some hops into ya!

cheers

Besides the expense?

For me it's about judicious use of ingredients and a preference for yeast and malt driven beers. I've enjoyed some hoppy beers but there seems to be a trend among many to hop the crap out of beers at the expense of balance.

Anyway, I'll always defer to the experience of some of the brewers on here - you're one of those so if you have a 'hop the crap out of it but still keep it balanced' recipe, I'd give it a go. Hops are delicious but not every beer should taste like orange-passiona.

 

[Siborg]

Besides the expense?

Yep. I can't afford hundreds of grams of hops at this stage. Damn unemployment!

 

[bum]

I've enjoyed some hoppy beers but there seems to be a trend among many to hop the crap out of beers at the expense of balance.

But balance for an AIPA is different to balance for a dubbel or something. You can easily hop the crap out of something and still have it balanced for style. Got enough malt to support the hops? BAM! Balanced. (Huge generalisation, obviously, but you know what I mean.)

Hops are delicious but not every beer should taste like orange-passiona.

Unless the brewer would like them to.

 

[manticle]

Yes and yes.

My points still remain. Tony asked why are some brewers afraid to hop with 500+g of hops and I offered some reasoning as to why they may not want to particularly.

I don't believe no-one should and I don't believe everyone should.

By the way - style isn't the definitive factor to me. I judge beer on how it tastes first and foremost. My palate is broad enough to accept surprise and broad enough to distinguish when those surprises work. I have tasted many a highly bittered beer and many a hop bursted or highly late hopped beer. Some have been fantastic, and like a good hip hop* track, may differ from my usual faves but still be a cracker.

Others show little thought other than 'oh I'll wack this bag and this bag and this bag in and see how she goes'.

The same happens with big and malty beers too. Obviously style gives some context but taste is the overall deciding factor as far as I'm concerned.

*hip hop is an undeliberate pun and I have no wish to have a hopped versus malty war.

 

[bum]

I agree with all that.

'Cept hip hop is rad, actually.

 

[Siborg]

OK. Played with a few of the suggestions, got the best results from the carafa special type II.

Tony, I added a 15g 20min addition of centennial. I will keep the rest of the additions at the same times (for this one anyway) to keep the beer on track with the style/clone guidelines. I will definitely try a shorter boil with more hops the next time I can afford to splurge on a few hundred grams of hops.

Ralph's Heavy IPA
14-B American IPA

Size: 23.22 L
Efficiency: 68.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 227.89 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.068 (1.056 - 1.075)
Final Gravity: 1.017 (1.010 - 1.018)
Color: 8.54 (6.0 - 15.0)
Alcohol: 6.73% (5.5% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 69.9 (40.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
2.0 kg Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
.02 kg Carafa Special TYPE II
.5 kg Corn Sugar(Dextrose)
2 kg Dry Extra Light
1 kg Liquid Light Extract
40.0 g Columbus (14.2%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
15.0 g Centennial (9.7%) - added during boil, boiled 20 min
30 g Ahtanum (8.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
30 g Amarillo (8.6%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale in a 1.5L Starter

 

[Tony]

Yeah lots of hops cost...... and i understand not everyone being able to afford lots.

Ballance in a beer........... Its not really a set thing. Its really down to the style. An IPA thats sweet and malty will be very out of ballance but an oktoberfest that sweet and malty......... Perfection!

When you add the letter I onto any style it usually signafies IMPERIAL. This usually means extremes, in pale ales its usually hops and bitterness. An IPA will usually have a lower malt presence to make the hops stand out. THis is the ballance of this beer.

Very hoppy beers are easy to stuff up, but if you do your homework, its easy to get right too. Use of low cohumulone hops to bitter really helps. Sothern Cross fits this bill. I added a couple % crystal to hold up the hops but also used 50% wheat malt to dry the beer out... add a tart dry finnish to the malt to make the hop "character" shine. It works well.

I think MO would work well in an AG beer, but with all that extract, that wont ferment out all that well, using PILS will give the beer a slightly cleaner lighter finnish. THis will help what hops you do add shine.

I still say use all the hops you can. I know they are a bit expensive but its till going to cost you bugger all over the whole batch to chuck in another 50 to 100g, compared to the cost of comercial beer.

cheers

 

[Siborg]

Yeah lots of hops cost...... and i understand not everyone being able to afford lots.

Ballance in a beer........... Its not really a set thing. Its really down to the style. An IPA thats sweet and malty will be very out of ballance but an oktoberfest that sweet and malty......... Perfection!

When you add the letter I onto any style it usually signafies IMPERIAL. This usually means extremes, in pale ales its usually hops and bitterness. An IPA will usually have a lower malt presence to make the hops stand out. THis is the ballance of this beer.

Very hoppy beers are easy to stuff up, but if you do your homework, its easy to get right too. Use of low cohumulone hops to bitter really helps. Sothern Cross fits this bill. I added a couple % crystal to hold up the hops but also used 50% wheat malt to dry the beer out... add a tart dry finnish to the malt to make the hop "character" shine. It works well.

I think MO would work well in an AG beer, but with all that extract, that wont ferment out all that well, using PILS will give the beer a slightly cleaner lighter finnish. THis will help what hops you do add shine.

I still say use all the hops you can. I know they are a bit expensive but its till going to cost you bugger all over the whole batch to chuck in another 50 to 100g, compared to the cost of comercial beer.

cheers

Ok, f**k it. You talked me into it. I am sort of putting my own spin on this recipe after all. Here's the modified version. (the pils gives it a slightly lighter srm, and the IBU is .1 off the maximum style guide.

Ralph's Heavy IPA
14-B American IPA

Size: 23.22 L
Efficiency: 68.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 226.94 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.068 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.017 (1.010 - 1.018)
Color: 7.9 (6.0 - 15.0)
Alcohol: 6.71% (5.5% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 69.9 (40.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
2 kg Malt Craft Export Pilsner Malt
20g Carafa Special TYPE II
.500 kg Corn Sugar(Dextrose)
2 kg Dry Extra Light
1 kg Liquid Light Extract
40.0 g Columbus (14.2%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
15.0 g Centennial (9.7%) - added during boil, boiled 20 min
28 g Amarillo (8.6%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
30 g Amarillo (8.6%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 ea White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale in 1L starter

Realised I can't get any ahtanum from any of my lhbs, so amarillo it is!

 

[manticle]

Ballance in a beer........... Its not really a set thing. Its really down to the style. An IPA thats sweet and malty will be very out of ballance but an oktoberfest that sweet and malty......... Perfection!

Definitely not a set thing - otherwise all beer would taste the same. However a beer that relies on malt (English Browns for example) need to be prevented from being super sweet cloying alcoholic malt cordial with some good bittering. Dubbels with a touch of dryness, tripels with some hoppiness and spiciness, wheats with a tartness and dryness etc.

Anyway to be honest, in my haste reading this thread I did miss 'AIPA' in the first post (just saw IPA) and I reacted towards a perceived trend that screams 'add hops ad hoc' which I think misses the point of making good beer. If a beer is meant to be extremely hoppy then you need to be wary of the malt character and not just think the hops will carry an otherwise bad beer. Likewise if a beer is meant to be extremely malty then you need to be aware of the hop character (whether bittterness, flavour or aroma) and not just think that sweet grain will carry and otherwise average beer.

I know you know this - just explaining my response.

 

[Barley Belly]

get some hops into ya!

cheers

GOLD